American Experience; John Brown's Holy War; Interview with historian Margaret Washington, 2 of 5

and then the people that i was there last night ok so should i mention test out with what years were ok but that maybe you know a little less there was a tradition of black rebellion that john brown could draw on as well in eighteen hundred the year he was born gabriel conspiracy and virginia had been planned and very very wide scale is planning and eighteen hundred the year that john brown was born nat turner was also born and nat turner's rebellion and eighteen thirty one was reverberated all over the country opened the rise of the abolition movement and an the paranoia in the south

had a deep effect on the north as well as a self and of course there was the eighteen twenty nine petition that david walker wrote in what she called for african americans to rise up against their oppressors and to end slavery by their own hands and john brown's friend henry highland garnet who was a presbyterian minister had stated it in eighteen forty three at the black convention that the african americans should resist bondage by violence and he coined the phrase less resistance be a model and had it not been for frederick douglass who showed up at that meeting is very likely that the by convention movement an eighteen forty three would have voted for violence against slavery instead of moral suasion internet trainers

recall i'm curious why isn't only this is a powerful effect on the south and says well if we talk about the effects of this rain and psychologically and on senator mccain nat turner's eighteen thirty one rebellion had a profound effect on the south one that occurred in virginia and virginia was not the deep south virginia was a state that was considered a mild form of slavery virginia at the time was also contemplating gradual menu mission and nat turner's revolt was the revolt headed by man who did not live on a large plantation was not brutalized in any real intent sense the way the enslaved people on the large plantations were he was a man who could read and write he was

fairly a culture raided and his rebellion destroy any images the south would have african americans being fairly well treated are not rebelling and it really brought home to the south the idea that non slave person was content to be a slave not even one who was given the freedom to preach among his people and the freedom to learn to read and write slavery was wrong and that african american side as a form of oppression no matter what the conditions were many of the people well it

sounds like from all the idea that there could be this year means and that there was a sense and et cetera you know saying there was no i wasn't better it's led to a really a fact is that they're they're waiting to be it's his birthday what are the major points of turner's rebellion as far as whites for concern in both the north and the south was that there was no such thing as a mild form of slavery that there was no such thing as treating a slave so well that they wouldn't want to rebel because turner was not an enslaved person who lived on a plantation he was not someone who

was worked incessantly she had some mobility he could preach among his people and yet while he was preaching he was fomenting this rebellion and what he had in mind was literally blood curdling and it demonstrated to the south that their institution was under siege from within and it demonstrated to the north that slavery was something that african americans had never accepted because that was one of the myths that the southerners had try to perpetrate the slaves were happy that this was an institution that was moreover school phenom system of oppression and that term dispel the image of the south and that also created a closed system in the south there would be no more debate over slavery after eighteen thirty one

nat turner was a symbol for john brown a symbol of the wrath of god brought down by a black man a symbol of rebellion and assembled that the slaves time to settle in i mean i'm trying to get over and trying to stop using the word slave we had a long discussion play more assaults on campus last week and we had a long discussion about names one thing's week vargas will stop using words like slavery and fugitive and we're gonna say enslaved obama people and self emancipated on people consider fugitives cars and went to use a language so anyway that's that's my new resolution ok nat turner was a

symbol he was a symbol of what the wrath of god with due to slavery and it was a symbol that they were african americans in the south who understood the workings of the bible in the old testament militant sense just as john brown did and it was a symbol that they were a black man in the south who were willing to rise up against slavery that there was leadership in the south and so it was very much a symbol of a messianic message that african american man in the south we're willing to rise up and fight their oppression consultant john brown if he could get when african americans in the south with that kind of enthusiasm and that kind of commitment then they could create a rebellion like many abolitionists who went about their daily

occupations john brown was involved in the underground railroad and we tend to think of the underground railroad was something people did twenty four hours a day it wasn't like that when do we stop this because dan brown's involvement in the underground railroad stretch of a long period of time long before he became involved in kansas or any of his other labor activities he was in the underground railroad and ohio and massachusetts we move there and it was part of his daily commitment as he went on about about his other businesses has ten business and so forth the underground railroad operated by working way of a number of people

to take african americans from one place to another to feed them to clone them it is hysterically it was a subpoena power i sell you on its civilians of all you could do a very key ally and also the question is just as augustus says the phenomenon of play john brown's involvement in the ground where world just over a long period of time and he was involved in it as the underground railroad needed him which was the way the underground railroad worked we tend to think of the underground railroad as something that went on all the time and i didn't because african americans could not flee the south all the time and so all the conductor's had to be ready whenever they would need it until individuals going

about their daily occupations and then were called upon in a time of day or night in a time of the year to help african americans fleeing bond it and john brown's role in this endeavor was to feed them to hold them to help them get from one station to another and sometimes to protect him from physical harm that made him very important because many of the underground railroad conductors are pacifists and they would do everything except she had a gun and sometimes in order to protect an enslaved person who was fleeing bond that you had to use a gun and so john brown's role in that way was very important to the underground railroad for what effect do you think yeah browne to be around these ants

live only live his title europe dan brown met many african americans through his activities and the underground railroad and it helps him form an opinion of african americans and it was an opinion not unlike the opinion much of the leadership among african americans in the north and that was that african americans have a lot to learn and it was on the basis of his experiences in reading african americans through the underground railroad that he wrote or with what he called samples mistakes the mistakes that he felt african americans were making in talking to african americans were clean bond

is about their aspirations and their expectations and what they wanted out of freedom brown was concerned that there was not enough solidarity that they needed to look back at the brothers and sisters in bondage and do what they could to help them that they needed to see freedom air something that was important but not as important as making sure that they did what they could to help others get out of that situation so he developed an attitude that he fell made him closer to african americans he could talk to them about not drinking not easy to battle about unity and about strength that he could talk to them about the importance of using a gun to protect your liberties and if they were not willing to look beyond their own individual comforts he would say and as he said in

samples mistakes them and they were not really looking toward racial up to it and in a way would he use the underground railroad for was to come up with what he called a theory of uplift is very much like the theory of a couple of uplift that people i got that hat and his friend in syracuse jeremiah lovin yeah yeah it's b so let's talk about that they actually serve a connection and they come into contact with so many free slips that he develops

his own theories and can benefit liberation over the years of working in the underground railroad john brown came in contact with african americans fleeing bondage and asking questions talk to them got a sense of their aspirations their expectations their hopes and i felt that he knew african americans well enough to essentially write what he called samples mistakes which was john brown putting himself in the place of a black leader he was talking to the african american community specifically the community about a freed african americans and telling them about unity telling them about what they should do for the community what they should do for their brothers and sisters who remains in bondage how they should live don't drink don't smoke going to church read your

bible learn to read and right above all are to create a community this was published in the rams an african american newspaper on one level of course john brown being white man being not someone who by african american standards was certainly more privilege than they were this was the height of arrogance how could he had never experienced slavery or have never been hunted how could he tell them how they should live and what they should aspire to on the other hand this was the same kind of paternalism that many black leaders throughout the north had always espoused the middle class african american leadership were always telling the working and more class african americans how they should live how they should conduct themselves and usually it was a kind of way of life

that was the way white folks live so what perhaps john brown as well as his african american leaders were saying was the more like white america and maybe by people didn't want to be like white america so it was a kind of paternalism was no question about that on the other hand john brown probably felt that as someone who had internalized the african american struggle so long and so much ch that he had a right to say this because he was not sane and out of prejudice but he was seen in our concern yes it's so strong and so location and yeah

as amanda so omniscient and write less than the lead singer for an oil company and i think maybe i did john brown is a puritan patriarch got in and every sense of the word and the puritan patriarchal attitude comes from the bible comes and abraham sell his attitude is that he always

knows what's best he's never been a slave he's never had to flee bondage he doesn't know what it's like to be looked upon a scan simply because of the color of your skin and yet he has so identified with the african american experience and with their oppression that healed liberates that difference and because he has obliterated it in his own mind he feels that african americans have obliterated but they can't they are who they are and the society sees them a certain way and they have to live with that every day of their lives and so there is a kind of a a split in the sense that he wants them to see him as they would any other african american leader and so he feels that he can say these things to them but at the same time and he is not one of them and he nevertheless feels that he can behave this

way and it's no different from the way he behaves and all situations he does not want to hear any other side of the issue except his own because he thinks is right how is the african american community was certain the african american community except brown certainly free african americans those who were emancipating themselves from bondage except and they accept his help they accept the idea that he has their interests at heart the leadership the black leadership accept him they're not completely accepting of his ideas about liberation we know that we know that they didn't always accept what he said but they say they accepted his commitment they were astounded they were deeply moved by his commitment and they never doubted that commitment

because with john brown there was a sense of egalitarianism if he thought he was right when he dealt with african americans he thought it was right when he dealt with whites he thought he was right we need help with his own son's that was the personality of john brown but it did not mitigate his total commitment to like freedom let's say that the relationship with the us is so important and yet maybe the animal that relationship in a brown doesn't listen to douglas of the area you know and he's going into he's going into this you know you know is unable to fix that were accessible to join

that list i have a deep respect for john brown a profound respect for john brown yeah i respect for his commitment and he had a respect for what he wanted to do for african americans but he told brown that he was walking into a perfect trap and brown couldn't see it or brown didn't want to see it but that was was never convinced even when john brown spent that month in rochester working on his plans and much of that time that was wasn't even there even when he was doing that even when he met him in springfield and he told him about his subterranean plan to move into the alleghenies douglas was not convinced but what he was convinced about was his commitment to black freedom but that didn't translate into going into something that that was considered suicide i think it was in the

kora is for the browns desperate to get those situations and so that you know this is just a quorum and it's just the prelude to arms for a band the air is that so that a quality job around the ultimately douglas is in as much as in marvin is not ready to go as if a service member has those as minority status h very important tom donohue the douglas was the most important black leader and country and he knew that if he could get diapers or he felt that if he could get out was on his side

that would give his movement and his plan to kind of legitimacy and that perhaps douglas could enlist other people he says at that point come wid me douglas i got great plans for you that when i set up this provisional government you can be the head of it on the surface this sounds very seductive but douglas is a very reasonable very practical man certainly as committed if not more so to the struggle as john brown but he understands that this is something that cannot work for many reasons i'm probably the most important of which was that it had been done too hastily and he is not at all committed and in a way you get the sense the douglas wishes he could to the douglas wishes he could just so aside caution and go as seals green goddess and going to the old man that he

can't do it because he knows it's not going to work i first just a piece of that which is at the core of the switch and he couldn't join because i think this is important for but ultimately he can't do it and if you're going twenty one he might have left us a kansas but this certainly is prison issues douglas must've wanted to go but he's part of him good because that was himself was a freed man he had lived in slavery but on the other hand perhaps it was because he had lived in slavery that he understood the mind of the enslaved people and how difficult it was to get

them to move into rebellion and as history had shown with other african americans who had tried to foment a rebellion it took much much planning much much talking with people whom they saw every day and the enslaved people that know john brown and they know their own compatriots it was difficult to get them to mow so it may have been because there was no so well what enslaved people were capable of how cautious they were how suspicious they were of white people that he could see that this was not going to work on a practical level of course the are other major considerations that he tried to get around to think about just in terms of getting into harpers ferry and getting out not to mention trying to foment resistance among the enslaved people sell douglass certainly had to have wanted to be a part of this that was was revolutionary and

he had himself by and said he would welcome the move it's of an insurrection among the enslaved people he said this on two occasions before john brown ah but i was in the heat of passion and if he was a practical man so they had to be some ambivalent on his part and later on after the rebellion and after brown was executed and acted douglas had fled to england he said that you know that almost as though he was saying that i didn't have the courage to do it i don't have the courage to do what people are accusing me he's been to pj