The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Abortion as a Campaign Issue

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. Anyone with the mildest interest in the Presidential election might be forgiven for thinking that abortion was the number one issue dividing Ford and Carter. For the past week or ten days, Abortion has often appeared to dominate the news, with both candidates appearing before a panel of Roman Catholic bishops, with the Ford camp talking about the crucial Catholic vote, and with anti-abortion demonstrators dogging Carter`s trail. Yesterday the dispute spread to Congress, with an argument over whether to cut off federal funding of abortions for poor women. The National Organization for Women has claimed that the candidates are being intimidated by the bishops and are ignoring the views of what they call "a majority of American women." And a national organization of priests expressed deep concern that the bishops were stressing abortion to the neglect of other issues. So, while the polls may show that abortion is one of the least urgent concerns of most voters, the issue has firmly planted itself in the campaign. Tonight: Where does the abortion issue really belong in this election? First, where the candidates actually stand. Here`s what Mr. Ford told a news conference after his meeting with the bishops on Friday:

GERALD FORD: The Democratic platform and the Republican platform on the issue of abortion are quite different. I subscribe to the Republican platform and Governor Carter subscribes to the Democratic platform. His position and mine are not identical; my position is that of the Republican platform, and I`ll stick with it. I have had the position for some time that there should be a Constitutional amendment that would permit the individual states to make the decision based on a vote of the people of each of the states.

MacNEIL: The bishops said they were encouraged, but not totally satisfied by the President`s stand. On the other hand, they had been disappointed in Jimmy Carter`s statement ten days before that while he personally opposes abortion he does not support a Constitutional amendment on the subject. Anti-abortion, or pro-life people have shown themselves to be more than disappointed in Mr. Carter. He`s been on the receiving end of a number of their demonstrations recently; one example, a gathering in Scranton, Pennsylvania last week:

DEMONSTRATORS: Life! Life! Life! (Amid general noise and confusion.)

JIM LEHRER: It`s rather ironic that abortion should turn out to be such a thorny issue for Jimmy Carter, because according to most people he scored his first victory in the Iowa caucuses way back in January because of pro- life support. But afterward he was accused of having misled the people about where he stood. Some thought that because he said he backed a national statute on abortion Carter supported a Constitutional amendment on the issue. Carter said he didn`t and he doesn`t, even though he is personally against abortion. The impact of the abortion question appeared to fade after the early primaries; the only major candidate who made a profit on the issue was Ronald Reagan, who won the backing of many anti- abortion groups for his support of a Constitutional amendment banning abortions. The issue came up again during the party`s nominating conventions and platform hearings.

The Democrats stated in their platform that while they recognized the religious and ethical nature of the question, they believed it was undesirable to attempt to amend the Constitution to overturn the Supreme Court`s decision on the matter. The stand drew fire from within the party, denounced during a nominating speech for Ellen McCormick, the Long island housewife who had run for President as a pro-life candidate:

ELLEN McCORMICK: I have supported the human and civil rights movement all of my adult life. I am deeply concerned that in this age of technology we are not concerned with the protection of those who cannot protect themselves: the unborn child....

LEHRER: At their convention, the Republicans nominated Gerald Ford but gave him an abortion platform plank that appeared to have been designed by Ronald Reagan. It called for the continuance of the public dialogue on abortion and supported the efforts of those seeking the enactment of a Constitutional amendment to "restore life for unborn children."

MacNEIL: The Reverend James Ratigan is President of the National Federation of Priests` Councils. Father Ratigan, yesterday your organization, as I said at the beginning of the program, expressed some concern over the stress that the bishops were placing on abortion. Why did you do that? Is abortion not a number one issue to you?

JAMES RATIGAN: It is a number one issue to us and our board. The context in which we wrote the letter to Cardinal Cook was that members of his committee came out to speak to our executive board - 28 priests from across the country -- and we met to try talk to them: how could we join together to ensure that an amendment would be passed? In the course of that, though, we did mention in the letter that one of the overriding concerns that many of the members expressed at the board meeting was that it seemed to be an impression that they were getting that the bishops were stressing this one issue. And back in February in their pamphlet on the political response in an election year they called for us to look at all the candidates on a very broad base.-of issues, and look for those issues which would present a more wide range. And we felt the bishops were falling into the trap themselves of judging candidates on a single issue.

MacNEIL: Do you agree with those who think that this antiabortion activity could hurt the Church, cause a backlash and alienate members?

RATIGAN: It could, but I don`t think that would be a reason for us not to continue our own fight to change the Constitution. But I think that in the context of doing so we have to do so in a way that will eliminate that possibility as much as possible -- but we do have to speak out.

MacNEIL: Yours is a grass-roots organization, so to speak; you have, I gather, 117 councils in approximately 45 states -- how do you assess the reaction to the bishops` efforts at that level, at the grass-roots level, in the Church?

RATIGAN: Well, as the Board reported at the meeting, there seems to be a certain hesitancy on the part of many priests to get into the issue right now. And I think that`s partly because they sense that many of the forces who are right now pushing for a Constitutional amendment are not the people who are a broad-based, pro-life group; and that they find a lot of difficulty with that.

MacNEIL: Is that because the rank and file in the Catholic Church is less inclined than it might have been in the past to take guidance on such issues from the hierarchy in the Church?

RATIGAN: I think they are less inclined. I think that`s one of the problems with the program as it`s presently presented. -- that we`d like to see a stronger emphasis on even speaking to our own people, in an educational manner, or a way of trying to bring their consciences into what we believe should be a correct stance before we go before a general public and call for a Constitutional amendment.

MacNEIL: Thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Robin, Monsignor James McHugh is Director of the Pastoral Plan for Pro-Life Activities for the Bishops` Conference and as such is one of the key leaders in the anti-abortion move ment. Monsignor, you`ve heard what Father Ratigan has had to say; do you agree with his criticism of the bishops` stand, that they may have lost sight of their own instructions for a broad-based approach in this election?

JAMES McHUGH: No, I don`t agree with Father Ratigan. The bishops have consistently said that their concern about abortion, though fundamental, is the broad basis on which they then voice their concerns about those other problems in our society, or dangers in our society, which would in some way or other endanger other rights -- the right to eat, the right to jobs, the right to housing. In other words, the bishops see the abortion issue in a broad context of human rights which the Church should speak out in favor of.

LEHRER: Why has the Church not been heard on the other issues and only on abortion?

McHUGH: Because the abortion issue has been interjected into this Presidential campaign, and as a result has received unprecedented visibility. The bishops didn`t give it that, of course - the press gave it that, the media gave it that -- and I think that the reason that it has achieved that kind of visibility is that it is something that people understand readily. It`s harder for people to understand how the two candidates for the Presidency are going to fine-tune the economy; but the abortion issue is close to them.

LEHRER: Let`s pursue that a minute, Monsignor. Has a group of bishops called on President Ford and Jimmy Carter and asked them what they`re going to do about the poor people, what they`re going to do about inflation, what they`re going to do about foreign aid? It was abortion that the bishops went to see the two candidates about, was t not?

MCHUGH: No, not quite. The discussion with President Ford ranged over five or six different issues; the abortion issue got primary concern, but the other issues were treated equally and fairly. They did speak about employment, they did speak about human rights in various countries throughout the world and the relevance of our foreign policy to the protection of human rights. So we did get a chance to kind of spread the base a little bit there; however, with Governor Carter the discussion stayed pretty much on the abortion issue because that was what the Governor wanted to speak about, it was something that he wanted to try to understand the bishops better on, and it was something that they wanted to try to be fair and understanding to him about.

LEHRER: Have you picked up any of the hesitancy that Father Ratigan talked about on the part of the parish priest to really get out front on this issue?

McHUGH: No, I don`t think we`ve picked up that kind of hesitancy. Now, remember, we`re talking about 50,000 priests around the country and it`s pretty difficult to tell where they all are at any one time on any issue; but from our perspective we have programs that are directed towards the priests, and we find them highly cooperative on a wide range of programs. Naturally, some are going to prioritize -- some will be more concerned...

LEHRER: Going to do what, sir?

McHUGH: Some will prioritize. Those working in the inner city, of course, are going to be more concerned about inner-city problems than they would be about a more widespread problem such as abortion that doesn`t affect them day-to-day. But we find cooperation from the priests; and as a matter of fact, the bishops` program for respect for human life, which will be kicked off on October the third, is presently enjoying tremendous support from the priests throughout the country.

LEHRER: Then you don`t feel that this is hurting the Church, this effort on abortion, and you don`t feel the Catholic Church is going to be turned into a one-issue institution, as has been suggested?

McHUGH: I can assure you, it`s not going to be turned into a one-issue institution. As a matter of fact, the visibility given the abortion issue has prodded us to look more closely at all of the other issues and try to find consistency between our concerns for the right to life of the unborn and the right to life and the quality of life of those already born. I doubt that it will harm the Church`s so-called image in this society because I think people are fair-minded; they know that the Church has a moral concern here, and they expect churches to have moral concerns.

LEHRER: Monsignor, thank you. Betsey Stengel is Associate Director of the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, a national pro-abortion group. Mr. Stengel, is your group doing anything to offset the pro-life activities in this campaign, and if so., what?

BETSEY STENGEL: We certainly are; we`ve been working for the last six months at all levels of political activity. Most markedly, I think, recently, we worked very closely to represent the Protestant-Jewish communities` feeling in support of abortion rights for the Democratic platform, and worked very closely with Mr. Carter`s staff in achieving that platform. We are now engaged in expressing very strongly the feeling that the representation of abortion rights is not there at the national political level. Neither candidate now has a position which completely pleases us.

LEHRER: Where are you expressing it? We`re not hearing it anywhere.

STENGEL: I think there are two aspects to that question. One is that our people are actively writing letters to the candidates -- I just talked this morning to some people on Carter`s staff, and they are being swamped with protest letters at the moment. The Protestant and Jewish community has requested a meeting with both candidates, both Mr. Ford and Governor Carter, and we are waiting now for...

LEHRER: Similar to what the bishops did?

STENGEL: Right. We feel it`s very important to...

LEHRER: Has this been formally done?

STENGEL: Absolutely, and we have talked to both candidates` headquarters and we are in the process of awaiting a response; and in fact, today when we talked to Carter headquarters again they in formed us that they will be back in touch very soon. We are also, next week, to be hearing more on the public media platform from religious leaders all over the country about the fact that the Protestant and Jewish community are not being represented on this issue.

LEHRER: Alright, you said that neither one of these candidates` positions particularly please you because both of them have said they are opposed to abortion -- as you would say, abortion by choice -- is that correct?

STENGEL: Right. I think there definitely, as far as we are concerned, is a difference between our support for Mr. Ford`s position and our support for Governor Carter`s position. We totally oppose a Constitutional amendment, and therefore we are totally opposed to the Ford position. And we have no quarrel with Mr. Carter`s statement that he is personally opposed to abortion; we certainly have room in our position for that. However, we do oppose his position on federal funding of abortion, and I believe that he has left himself open in certain cases for allowing the feeling that he would support a Constitutional amendment if it meant certain req rein-` means and we are saying that we would not support any such law.

LEHRER: You have mentioned two or three times now the Protestant-Jewish community, of course, Father McHugh and Father Ratigan represent the Catholic community. Are we on the verge of having a religious war over the issue of abortion?

STENGEL: I sincerely doubt it, and even more, I sincerely hope not. I think, thank God, we have reached the point in this country where we will not have religious wars any more, war.

LEHRER: I didn`t mean war literally, I meant a political

STENGEL: I know. I would be willing to talk more in terms of a political war, and I fear it not at all from the religious community itself. What I really fear is, for instance, the re ports that we have had that Ford`s staff member said: they are going to play on the Catholic vote, and more, they are going to play on the dichotomy between the -- the "cultural dichotomy," I think the word was -- between the Catholic and Baptists. And we should have passed that period in our history and move on to getting along. I think the religious community has reached the point where at least we are trying to agree to disagree, and the politics do not help the situation at the moment and I hope the candidates do not try to divide the religious community because of that.

LEHRER: Thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Jeffrey Pressman is a political science professor at M.I.T., and he`s working on a study of the 1976 Presidential election. Mr. Pressman, you were with us last February when we discussed this issue; you told us then you thought the abortion issue was going to fade away. What happened?

JEFFREY PRESSMAN: I guess, Mr. MacNeil, that`s one of the disadvantages of being two times on the same program, as you have to live with your own predictions. I think in the short run, as was pointed out earlier, the issue did fade away after the Iowa caucuses; and that`s, I think, because the abortion issue was linked to the candidacy of Ellen McCormick, who was not an extremely potent candidate and ended up getting a total of about 1.5 percent of the total vote cast. Now, however, the abortion issue is being stressed by a much more important candidate, President Ford, and I think that that`s one reason why it has surfaced again as an issue. The difference in the two party platforms and the work of making up those platforms, I think, also ensured that it would become an issue; the bishops have, in their public statements and apparently in the private meetings of candidates, also been stressing the issue; and also the fact that the election seems to be turning on some very closely fought northern industrial states with large Catholic populations -- all of those things ensure, I think, that the issue will receive visibility.

MacNEIL: Good. President Ford`s campaign manager, James Baker, told reporters this today: "It is a campaign issue whether we like it or not; we are pleased it is an issue because the bishops came out on our side." And he added in response to questions that the issue could bring in votes for Mr. Ford. Who is making points on it, do you think, and who is it hurting?

PRESSMAN: Right now there`s very little evidence that anybody is making points on it.The recently released New York Times-CBS poll showed that attitudes on abortion were not closely related to attitudes toward candidates, and that in fact Mr. Carter was doing better among those who supported a Constitutional amendment banning abortion than among those who oppose such an amendment. However, that may change; and in the short run it may, as Mr. Baker hopes, work to President Ford`s advantage, but in the long run it may cause a backlash among other voters; so I think it`s much too early to tell who it will help, and we certainly have no hard evidence on that.

MacNEIL: I`d like to ask all of you now, and start with Father Ratigan because I believe I sensed in an earlier answer the seeds of this question: do you believe that the pro-life forces are trying to reach the right people in this campaign? After all, how much influence does a President actually have on whether a Constitutional amendment is achieved or not?

RATIGAN: Our political analyst could tell us that better. Technically, he has nothing to do with it; it`s the Congress and in the states that have to ratify; but I think that where we have to put our emphasis as a church is at least, in the beginning, at this stage. of the game, anyway -- is on our own constituency. We find in polls that only about a third of the Catholics themselves would favor a Constitutional amendment at this time. But I think that our better emphasis -- although we`re getting visibility because of what`s happening -- but the long-range emphasis has to be on the educational process.

MacNEIL: Monsignor, what do you think of that, do you think the short-range publicity may be beneficial in bringing the issue before the public but, as Father Ratigan suggests, the long-range issue may not be so beneficial to the Church following?

McHUGH: Yes, I tend to agree with that. I think that the short-range visibility brings it to the attention of the whole country; I think that that accomplishes an added dimension of the bishops` role -- the bishops are concerned, certainly, about reinforcing Catholic teaching for their own people. But also, as religious leaders in a religiously pluralistic nation they want to make a contribution to the public morality, to draw public attention to the tragic consequences of an abortion-on-request policy, such as we have today. So I think that the high visibility that it achieves is accomplishing something now. Our problem -or our challenge -- is to make sure that we are geared for the long-range effort and that we are able to relate the abortion issue to a wide variety of human rights issues about which we also have a continuing concern.

MacNEIL: Do you agree with what Father Ratigan said earlier, that Catholics are somewhat less inclined than they were traditionally to follow instructions from the hierarchy, whether in Rome or the American Catholic hierarchy, on these social issues and that a politician who wanted to line up the Catholic religious grouping on an issue like abortion couldn`t guarantee that simply because the hierarchy wanted them to take one position they were going to in their private lives or in their politics?

McHUGH: I think we`re going through an experience where the teaching leadership of the Church is having greater impact than it may have had in recent years. However, I think that the leadership of the Church, in fulfilling its role as teachers and as pastors, really is not seeking to be political leadership at the same time. So I think that the Catholics are attentive to the moral teaching of their bishops and priests and I think that they feel a legitimate freedom in regard to their political activity, and I think the bishops want it that way. The bishops are not meeting with Governor Carter or Mr. Ford in order to endorse a candidate or to interject this topic into the Presidential race. They have met with them as candidates, they have spoken to them about it because it`s a highly important topic in our society. But we have no intention of dictating the choice of candidates -- dictating the e1-ectoral choice -- for our Roman Catholic people. We feel that they can do that themselves.

MacNEIL: Is Mr. Baker, the President`s campaign manager, wrong in saying today the bishops came out on our side?

McHUGH: Yes, I think he`s wrong in saying that we came out on either candidate`s side, or that we came out, particularly, against either candidate. Obviously, as a political analyst or a political activist, he`d have a right to say whatever he wants. But we did not see our role as coming out in favor of either candidate. We feel that we wanted to call the seriousness of the attention to both of them in an emphatic way so that they would realize that it matters to the Roman Catholic leadership and to their people.

MacNEIL: Right. Thank you, Monsignor. Jim?

LEHRER: Yes, the polls show, as we have been talking about, and as Robin said at the very beginning, that abortion is not now a major concern of the majority of the voters in this country. But I would like to ask each one of you now to look ahead to the election: Could it become a significant factor in deciding this election? What do you think, Ms. Stengel?

STENGEL: I don`t think that it is going to be the issue that makes up people`s minds. There are, no matter what anybody says, major issues facing Protestant, Catholic and Jewish voters, and if you want to look at exactly, for instance, why a Catholic urban voter is going to make his or her decision, *1 am convinced that that voter is going to be more concerned about the kind of schools that his or her children go to, whether there`s going to be a paycheck coming in in the next couple of months, whether they will be able to afford that new car that they want. Abortion may be one of ten issues that are basic in the decision but I cannot believe that it makes up the final decision.

LEHRER: Dr. Pressman, what`s your view on that in terms of the long run? I know we put you on the spot when you were on the program before, and let me do it again: how important do you think it`s going to be on Election Day?

PRESSMAN: Well, Mr. Lehrer, I think I will change my position and say that I think that it might well be a very important issue on Election Day; it will never rank very high in the electorate as a whole. Right now I think Lou Harris finds it 27th of 27 among issues; however, I think because the polls now show the results in states like New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Michigan to be so close, and because those states have a high percentage of Catholic voters, that that issue may turn out to be important, not only in and of itself, but because abortion is also a code word for a whole set of cultural attitudes.

LEHRER: What do you mean by that?

PRESSMAN: I think that there is an uneasiness that the polls are finding among northeast industrial state Catholic voters with Jimmy Carter on a range of lifestyle and other issues. Somehow, they don`t feel comfortable with him; sometimes they can`t express specifically what they don`t like, but there does seem to be a Catholic problem for Jimmy Carter. His support among Catholics is lower than a Democratic candidate might usually expect to find and I think that abortion in a sense is a symbol which voters may view as expressing some of this uneasiness. I think that issues as Monsignor McHugh pointed out earlier issues like the economy, and energy and health care and education are hard, they`re intractable, they`re complex. And therefore, symbolic issues like busing and abortion, over which a President has really very little control -- we`re electing a President, not a member of the Supreme Court a President doesn`t have a great deal to do with the Constitutional amendment process in those issues, but symbolic issues give a voter a chance to express how he or she feels in general, and register a protest, in a sense.

LEHRER: Father Ratigan, let me ask you, not as a political scientist, but as a man who`s around a lot of Catholics on a regular basis, do you agree with Dr. Pressman`s assessment?

RATIGAN: Insofar as in those key states, I think it might have some effect. I think that`s what our Board was concerned about, was that for many of their people it is not a high-priority issue; that there are a lot of other issues that the bishops have made beautiful statements on, but don`t seem to be getting the visibility in this election campaign. I that`s where our concern was coming from, that at least, the-impression coming across to the majority of the board members was that the bishops were kind of testing the candidates on only one issue.

LEHRER: Father McHugh, ten seconds.

McHUGH: I think it will be a highly important factor in some states and it will be a decisive factor for some people. All our polls have shown us that for a small percentage of the electorate it can be a decisive factor, and in a close race it can be highly important because of that.

LEHRER: That`s what you want it to be, right?

McHUGH: No, we don`t want it to be the decisive factor in the choice of candidates; we want people to be better aware of it so that we can carry the long-range Congressional battle.

LEHRER: Thank you, Monsignor. Robin?

MacNEIL: Yes. Thanks, Jim, and thank you all very much. Jim Lehrer and I will be back tomorrow evening. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.