The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

(beeping tone) (beeping tone) (beeping tone) (silence) (silence) (silence) (opening music) Jim Lehrer: Good evening, leading the news this Tuesday. President Bush had his first White House meeting with leaders of Congress, while administration officials testified before congressional committees about leveraged byouts and high technology. And Federal Reserve Chairman Greenspan said interest rates will stay high, as long as inflation stays high. We'll have the details in our new summary in a moment, Robin. Robert MacNeil: After the news summary, our first focus is the new campaign by abortion opponents. correspondent Elizabeth Brackett has a documentary report, then a debate between Sydney and

Daniel Callahan. She pro-life, he pro-choice. Correspondent Charles Krause has a documentary update on the situation in El Salvador. Finally excerpts from today's confirmation hearing for incoming Commerce Secretary Robert Mosbacher. (funding music) (funding voice over) Funding for the MacNeil Lehrer News Hour is provided by AT&T, combining everything people like about telephones, with everything they expect from computers, to make everything about information easy. AT&T. Additional funding is provided by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, a catalyst for change, and this station and other public television stations, and the corporation for public broadcasting. Jim Lehrer: President Bush had the leaders of Congress over to the White House this morning. Democrats and Republicans said there was a warm, friendly atmosphere. The main topic was the budget, which the president will present to Congress next month. After the meeting, both sides

said there was a bipartisan spirit on a number of issues. (new Speaker) It's my judgment that the president wants to take a more active role, specifically, than what the (talking over each other)....... (new speaker) the thrust of it, that he wants to be involved in a budget process. We will have specifics on the 10th of February, and we can't do it until we have specifics. (new speaker): I think there is a very hopeful sense that we're going to be able to find bipartisanship almost everywhere. We've had it in these last two years everywhere, except for Southern Africa, and some parts of Central America, and Nicaragua, particularly. And I have a sense that there's going to be serious effort on both parts to seek avenues that we can walk together without quarreling and confrontation. Jim Lehrer: By partisanship was also the theme when Vice President Quayle met with congressional leaders today. He did it

in a series of meetings at the capital. Robin. Robert MacNeil: Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan said today that he would keep interest rates high to combat inflation. Testifying to the House Banking Committee, Greenspan said that current inflation rates clearly are too high and must be brought down. He said that continued growth of the economy at the present rate would risk a serious intensification of inflationary pressures. Another congressional witness today was Treasury Secretary Nicholas Brady. He expressed caution about the growing trend of leveraged byout activity. Treasury Secretary Nicholas Brady: I have the gnawing feeling. I think the President has the gnawing feeling that this is a trend which, it may very well be all right, but it's disturbing as you look at it, over leveraging the, uh, our major, some of our major companies. Our national savings are being put into financial engineering as opposed to being invested in plants which produce new products or companies that produce new services at a lower price. That's not the system that, has over the years

been the one that's been most successful for our country. Jim Lehrer: Over at the Senate Commerce Committee today. The subject was high definition television and closing America's high technology gap. It came up in the confirmation hearing of Robert Mosbacher, President Bush's choice for Commerce Secretary. Robert Mosbacher: Although it's very, very late in the game, it's not too late. If we move quickly and together both the legislative and executive branches, and if further studies bear this out, we can get back in the game that we should do it through consortiums, through cooperation and need to move quickly and collectively in this way. Jim Lehrer: The committee has expected to vote to confirm Mosbacher next week and send the nomination on to the full Senate where a similar result is expected. Robert MacNeil: The Soviet government said today that the death toll and yesterday's earthquake in Tajikistan may be lower than the initial estimate of 1,000, but it's still too early to know for

sure because many people are still buried under the mudslide that followed. The quake was centered in Soviet Central Asia near the Afghan border. We have a report from Ian Glover James of Independent Television News. Ian Glover James: It's now feared after shocks could trigger more landslides in Tajikistan. Rescue teams using helicopters are scanning the countryside, looking for survivors in the outlying villages of this mountainous republic close to the Afghanistan border. Below the survivors huddled together in grief. These are farming people, many perished in the fields when the quake struck at dawn. Today relief agencies got to work in the second Soviet earthquake in two months, and the first emergency supplies arrived, truckloads of tents and warm clothing. Jim Lehrer: The United States today accused the Soviet Union of violating the peace agreement in Afghanistan and Washington, a State Department spokesman, said the Soviets are continuing daily bombing raids against rebel forces. He said such attacks violate the Geneva withdrawal agreement

that caused for all Soviet troops to be gone from Afghanistan by February 15th. In anticipation of that date, the U.S. Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, today advised all Americans to leave the country before then. There is a fear that instability and violence will follow. The Soviet news agency TAS reported today that Afghan Army troops killed nearly 400 rebels in a dispute at a mountain pass, over allowing a shipment of food into Kabul. Robert MacNeil: Theodore Bundy was executed in Florida's electric chair today for the murder of a 12-year-old girl in 1978. The sentence was carried out a few hours after the Supreme Court denied him a stay. Bundy, a 42-year-old law school dropout, was convicted of three murders in Florida, but had long been suspected of some three dozen others. This past weekend, his appeals all denied, he confessed to killing 28 women. Jim Lehrer: The President of the Urban League today said he expected the Bush White House to be a very different place than the Reagan White House. John Jacob in issuing the League's annual

State of Black America report said the economic spread between whites and blacks increased under Reagan. John Jacob: In 1988, blacks were three times as likely as whites to be poor, two and a half times as likely to be jobless, housing segregation increased for the second straight year. Black life expectancy declined. The gap has been made wide about government cuts in programs that helped poor people survive, that create opportunities, that enabled families to make it. Our task in 1989 is to focus national attention on the growing black-white gap, and to begin the process of closing the gap. Robert MacNeil: That's our summary of the news. Now it's on to the new campaign against abortion, followed by a debate on the subject, a report from El Salvador and Robert Mosbacher's testimony. (music) First tonight we consider abortion. This week marks the 16th anniversary of the Roe vs

Wade Supreme Court decision making abortion legal. The anniversary has been marked by marches, speeches, and a phone call by President Bush to anti-abortion demonstrators. We consider the issues that continue to fuel the abortion debate in a moment, but first we look at the current tactics in the abortion battle. Earlier this month, hundreds affiliated with a group called Operation Rescue staged anti-abortion demonstrations in New York City. Correspondent Elizabeth Brackett reports from inside and outside that protest. Elizabeth Brackett: They came from all across the country, from the Midwest, the South, even as far away as California. By midday, Operation Rescue Volunteers jammed the lobby of the Hotel Carter in New York City. This was the 5th time this year the call had gone out nationwide to come to a city to block the doors of clinics that perform abortions, a tactic that had gotten the protesters thrown in jail from Buffalo to Atlanta. (person) When I left that jail, I was 18 pounds lighter. I went home with a bit of an idea.

(another person - many speaking) The Lord is so good. I was three weeks too. That's a miracle. In the most unexpected ways, the Lord always provides for our means same here. The Lord provided for me financially to come here. I didn't have a cent. All I knew I had a command to go. And it's while I don't have the means as you don't need it. You know, when you work for the Lord, you don't need them. Did you, or Buffalo, New York did five rescues in November? Three of their clinics lost their resources. It's coming. You know, God is worthy. It's marvelous. Elizabeth Brackett: The call to come to New York for the two-day demonstration in January had been issued by this man, 29-year-old Randall Terry, a lay preacher and former used car salesman, who came up with the idea of sitting in front of the doors of abortion clinics a little over a year ago. Terry tells his followers that God's law, not man's law, must be followed when human life is at stake. He has found thousands who agree with him. Randall Terry: We have had over 15,000 arrests in the past eight months. And I'm told that that's more than the entire civil rights movement combined. So that's an amazing feat. It's

really, it's an amazing part of American history. The reason that it's grown is because the rescue movement possesses within it a vision in the hope of actually stopping the Holocaust, saving babies today, rescuing mothers today in such a way that will produce the political clout to change the laws tomorrow. Elizabeth Brackett: Operation Rescue's troubles with the law have grown as fast as the movement has grown. The group was already liable for over $50,000 in fines from previous demonstrations in New York. This time, the group faced a permanent injunction and a new round of fines if they went ahead with demonstrations they were planning for the next two days. A federal judge had signed the order, prohibiting the group from blocking the doors of abortion clinics at the request of pro-choice groups. Alfred Moran heads one of those groups, planned parenthood of New York. Alfred Moran: Our position is that they are stepping outside the law, that they have taken unto themselves to deliberately violate a woman's right to have access to services, to deliberately take

the position that a fetus is more important than a woman and that they don't care what the impact is of that, and that they have demonstrated their frustration at being unable to change the law now by taking to the streets and engaging in an illegal activity. Elizabeth Brackett: How much of a threat do you think Operation Rescue is to legalize abortion in this country? Alfred Moran: I think they're engaging in a practice that doesn't have anything to do with changing the law or impacting on Supreme Court or impacting on Congress. I think they get a great deal of media attention, which I think is what they're seeking, but I don't really believe they represent a threat in terms of changing the status of legal abortion in the United States. Elizabeth Brackett: Pro-choice groups did win a small victory in the current legal battle with Operation Rescue. In a legal twist that infuriated Terry and his followers, the judge ordered that all the fines they owed must be paid to the pro-choice groups. Randall Terry: I have no intention whatsoever of paying money to the national organization of women and child killers, which the order says that they can give the money to abortion mills.

There's not a chance that I would ever give money to child killers. Elizabeth Brackett: Later at a news conference on the steps of City Hall, Terry said he also had no intention of telling anyone which clinic would be the target of the next day's demonstration. Terry Randall: I'm not going to answer any questions about the rescues on Friday and Saturday. Elizabeth Brackett: That strategy had worked well for Terry in the past. It left the police and pro-choice groups scrambling as they tried to mount forces to keep the clinics open. This time, the national organization for women in New York vowed to be ready. (new speakers) Queen's women's medical office. Right. Okay, they're at 8306, Queen's Boulevard. It's not on our list. Okay. So what do we take from that? Um the..... either the R or the G? Subway. Either the R or the G. Elizabeth Brackett: Now staffers poured over city maps trying to figure out which clinic might be hit. And they plotted directions to clinics so their volunteers could move quickly the next morning. (unknown speaker) We're in this to stop Operation Rescue from blockading clinics. We realize that whatever person's ideology, they have the right to demonstrate, but they do not have the right to interfere with someone else's constitutional rights.

Elizabeth Brackett:Several blocks away, a major clinic was also getting ready. The Margaret Sanger Clinic is the largest plan parenthood clinic in New York City. Women made 16,000 visits to the clinic last year. Four thousand abortions were performed. Protest, both violent and nonviolent, is not new here. In 1986, the clinic was bombed. In December, Operation Rescue shut down the clinic for five hours. Today, clinic director Barbara Clayton was preparing her staff in case they were the target again. Barbara Clayton: We should have very good police cooperation in terms of numbers of policemen that will be here beginning or as early so we can get the clinic open as soon as possible. (singing) Elizabeth Brackett:By evening, over 1,000 Operation Rescue volunteers had filled the pews at St. Cyril's Catholic Church. They had come ready to be motivated for their task the next morning. (unknown speaker) Reason we're here tonight is because babies are being murdered.

We believe to a man and a woman here on the worth of every individual human being, every person. Elizabeth Brackett: But it was up to the evangelical lay preacher to provide the final moments of inspiration as he prepared his followers to face arrests the next morning. Terry Randall: We tomorrow are going to rescue children with over 1,000 people. And when they ask us when they get us downtown, what is your name? We will tell them, our name. Our name is Baby Doe and our address is the Supreme Court building. You want to tell you something? Please hear this. If there's any way that you can spend even the night in jail, don't pass it up because we're going to be together, they're going to hold us in some huge place somewhere, and we'll have some of the best prayer meetings and the best revival we've ever had in our lives. Hallelujah. (applause) Hallelujah. (applause) Elizabeth Brackett: At 6 o'clock the next morning, Operation Rescue was on the street. Their destination was still a secret to all but the leaders as the tightly disciplined group

moved out toward the city subway. (subway noise, unknown speaker) Let's get on the train. Operation Rescue, board the train. Elizabeth Brackett: As Operation Rescue wound through the city, early morning rioters at the NOW office were still trying to figure out where they were going. NOW speaker: They're heading east. Okay. So we thought they could be going to crash that's around here, too. They said heading east, she thought planned parenthood. (not understandable) Who is it? Where's Kelly? She's with Ellen. Elizabeth Brackett: Out of the subway and onto the street in the still dark morning, Terry and his group were spotted. (unknown speaker) You're going to give out hangers to women when they can't get legal safe abortions.

You're going to hand out knitting needles when they can't get legal safe abortions or maybe you'll hand out little containers of bleach or little containers of rye. (unknown speaker) Respect the purpose of Sergeant Dolan, sir, they're going to plan parenthood. As planned, a 21, first second avenue, I'm going to need some help over there real quick, I think. Group to my right go to the side door, group to my left, front door, ok? Side door, front door. Elizabeth Brackett: Terry's troops followed the orders of their mostly male leaders. Both doors of the Margaret Sanger clinic were quickly blocked. Police estimated the number of protesters at close to 1,000. (crowd yelling) Clinic director Barbara Clayton was angry but not surprised by the chaotic scene that greeted her when she arrived for work. (background noise) Are you the officer in charge.... Barbara Clayton: It's every woman's right in this country, it's not only my right, it's any other woman on the street to be able to have access for safe medical care and they are not allowing it and

that we won't stand for. (loudspeaker) Anyone who....... at this time, subject to arrest and be placed under (background noise) (background crowd noise) (loudspeaker) Move back, move back. Back and left. Don't give any ground in the front. Do not cooperate in any manner shape or form. This is not in order to be punitive against the police, it's just by time for the babies. Every minute that it takes every one of us to be arrested, one more.......Elizabeth Brackett: Waiting through all this was clinic patient Lynn Bose. At age 34, she was separated from her husband in poor health and in bad financial shape. Already the mother of a three year old, she decided she could not handle another child now. Lynn Bose: When I was 30, I was supposed to have an abortion which is very traumatic to begin with, to have to go through the procedure, it's very upsetting.

But it's a decision you have to make, you have to do it. I just want to do it and get it over with. I've been here for an hour in the freezing cold. I'm nauseous, I have morning sickness. I can't eat or drink because I'm supposed to have the procedure. And they're making every, I mean this demonstration is just making my predicament a thousand times worse. I could have gone in there, had it over with gone home and recuperated. And instead, I'll be here all day, getting hypoglycemic, I can't eat. And it's my right to make this choice. (crowd chanting) One, two, three, four, open up the clinic door. Elizabeth Brackett: NOW, and other pro-choice demonstrators said they had purposefully kept their number small to avoid trouble. But they were not pleased with the slow pace of the arrests. As arrests continued, Operation Rescue brought in fresh troops on their hands and knees. (unknown speaker) Stop right there, we'll make it easy on everybody. Hey, I'm telling you it's all right now. That's it.

Well, you just stop right there. That's it. Stop, crawling. Elizabeth Brackett: Two hours after the protest started, police began opening a small path to the clinic door. Police told the deputy director of Planned Parenthood to get staff and patients ready for a try for the door. (woman speaking) Stay quiet, stay calm, stay in double-file. Do not look at the protesters who are maybe left. Do not touch them. Do not talk to them. Do not return anything. Look straight ahead and remember who you are and be proud. (crowd speaker) Hey, they lied to you. Don't let them kill your baby. That's not accepted. It's not a flaw, but it's a living human being. (crowd noise) Elizabeth Brackett: Once inside, emotions range from relief to anger. (unknown speaker) So you're in, it's 10 minutes after 10. What are your thoughts? Well, I have predicted 9:30, so not too bad. We have patients here.

I'm very happy that we are able to access the building and that we can now deliver safe medical care to these women. Elizabeth Brackett: For Bose, walking through the demonstrators was not as hard as she had feared. Lynn Bose: I just ignored them. It was a part of me that's pretty disgusted with that kind of attitude. They have the right to their own beliefs, but I don't like anybody telling me and deciding for me what I'm going to do. I mean, they've caused me physical, you know, a good three, four hours of physical pain, emotional pain. And to me, that doesn't seem, you know, pro life. Elizabeth Brackett: Three hours after patients had gotten into the clinic, those who had not been arrested from Operation Rescue were still on the street. Randall Terry had not been arrested, and police said this was a part of their strategy to control the demonstrators. Police: We find that if they had their leaders in here, there is some control in the group and there is somebody we can talk to. If we arrest them, we feel that the group would be leaderless and be more of a problem. Elizabeth Brackett: Police did arrest 275 protesters at this demonstration. 690 more were arrested at demonstrations the following day.

Over half refused to give their names and were held for at least one or two nights. While still at the barricades the first day, Terry pronounced Operation Rescue's efforts a success. Terry Randall: We had over 1,000 people out here. That's an enormous amount of people. I mean, this is a phenomenon. This is something that has not happened in our country for over 20 years. And the judges, the politicians, they're getting the signal. As is Planned Parenthood, N-O-W-A-C-L-U, et cetera, legalized child killings days are numbered. We will win. (woman) Although the clinic is open and functioning, and...... Terry Randall: Oh, no, no, no. We've been watching very few women who look like patients have gone in. Elizabeth Brackett: Planned Parenthood said 25 abortions were done on the day of the protest, about half of the number usually completed. But clinic staff said all patients who missed appointments for abortions did reschedule. The question is, how much impact will this growing form of protest have on public opinion, as the continuing controversy over abortion works its way back to the Supreme Court?

Robert MacNeil: We take up that question and the enduring debate on abortion, and we do so with two individuals who have engaged in that debate for years themselves. Daniel Callahan is director and co-founder of the Hastings Center, a biomedical ethics institute. Among his books is "Abortion, Law, Choice, and Morality". Sydney Callahan is an author, lecturer, and professor of psychology at Mercy College in Dobbs Ferry, New York. Though they share a 34-year-old marriage, Sydney and Daniel Callahan do not share the same opinion on abortion. In 1984, the Callahan's co-edited "Abortion: understanding differences", a collection of essays on abortion. Mr. Callahan joins us from our studios in Denver, where he's giving a speech tonight. Sydney Callahan, you are pro-life. First of all, what do you think of the tactics we've just seen of the operation rescue people? Sydney Callahan: Well, I've seen many demonstrations and civil disobedience in my life, and I usually judge them on three or four categories. The first being is the cause just? Is the abuse that is being protested, a real abuse?

Two, are people using peaceful methods with civil respect for their opponents? Three, do these people seem sincere? Are they out to grandstand, or making careers, or are they really altruistic and their motivation? And then four, is this working? Is this doing what the people who are trying to change the system want? Is it really working? Now, I think in every movement you have the people who are the activists who say, look, we've got to pull these people out of the water and save. If we just save one person, it's worth it. And then you have the people who say, don't worry about pulling the people out of the water, run upstream, and close the dam, and try to keep people from jumping in. And so I think there are always this conflict intention between these two groups. Robert MacNeil: Now, how do you answer all the questions you just posed? Is the cause just, are the tactics good? Sydney Callahan: For myself. Robert MacNeil: yes

Sydney Callahan: I think the cause is just, I think the people are sincere. I think that they, whether they're actually peaceful or not, I have some questions about. I'm worried that these tactics will make people more opposed, because it looks as though it's coercive. That's my only problem with the operation rescue. Is it creating more ill will? Is it more violent than peaceful? Robert MacNeil: Daniel Callahan, is it? Daniel Callahan: I think it tends to the violent side. They're not, they're not really looking for their own rights, which was the case with the blacks earlier in the civil rights movement. They're really directly interfering with the rights of others. They certainly have, every grounds, if, from their viewpoint, do what they do, but it seems to me we do live in a country which is marked by respect for law, and I don't believe that we should physically impair the rights of others. We have a democratic process. We have a way of bringing about change in the law in this country. It's not necessary, and it seems to me clearly unfair to people who are doing nothing other than exercising their own rights.

Robert MacNeil: We heard, from the Planned Parenthood people, this is not going to have an effect. We heard from the leader of operation rescue. It is already having an effect, and it's going to work. What do you think on that? Is this changing public opinion? Daniel Callahan: I suspect it will make some change in public opinion. I can remember back the time when the pro-choice group movement was coming into being, and the laws were being changed in various states in this country prior to Roe versus Wade. They made a great, great number of public statements. They made themselves very visible, and they called attention to their cause in a very effective way. Now, of course, the shoe is on the other foot, and inevitably anything I suspect that calls attention to the debate, really, that forces people to think carefully about it, is probably going to help the forces of change more than the forces of the status quo. I think it's unfortunate what they're doing, on the other hand, I suspect it is effective, because abortion is the kind of issue that people don't like to think about very much. They want to evade, and I suspect anyone that manages to make us look at it very closely is going to get some support.

Robert MacNeil: Sidney Callahan, you're both doctors, of philosophy or psych...., I'm not going to call you doctors as it would be confusing. Sidney, you've been debating you to this publicly and privately for years now. In the 16 years since Roe versus Wade, how has the debate changed? Sidney Callahan: Well, I think it's changed quite a bit, and as a pro-life person, I'm quite heartened by it. I think several things have changed. One, there is a whole new wing of the pro-life movement, which I represent. I'm a member of feminist real life, I'm a member of just life. People who see the abortion issue as a part of a package that includes being for peace, against capital punishment, against nuclear war, for economic justice, for women, and they see the pro-life struggle as one more effort to have justice only now for another oppressed group. Robert MacNeil: Even though a lot of those issues would come down on the so-called liberal side of the equation. Sidney Callahan: yes, just as there is a new

there's a new change in the international scene, new alignments. I think there have been new alignments within our country, particularly on this issue, and it isn't so easy to say who's left and who's right anymore. Robert MacNeil: How do you see the debate having changed over these years, Daniel Callahan? Daniel Callahan: I think Sydney is quite right. There are new groups in the debate that weren't there earlier. I think there have been scientific developments. There have been the development of the ultrasound technique, allowing women to visualize fetuses. There have been the real development of the field of embryology and fetal knowledge, which has grown quite independent of the abortion debate. We've really had people thinking about this for a long time. We have new scientific knowledge. Robert MacNeil: How has, excuse me for interrupting. How has, the more knowledge of the embryo changed the debate or feelings about it? How has that changed? Daniel Callahan: I suspect part of the debate has turned on the relative status that the fetus should have, the rights of the fetus, whether the fetus is a person, whether it deserves the full protection of the law.

Inevitably, a medicine which pays a lot more attention to the fetus, educates us more about the fetus, is going to bring the fetus much more visibly before people's eyes and before their thought. Inevitably, I think the result of that is to make people worry, if not change their mind, at least worry a bit more, recognizing that, look, this is something very important here. This is something that we have to think about in a way perhaps we would not have before we had this kind of knowledge. Robert MacNeil: Well, there's another factor that's happened since the Roe vs Wade, and that is that millions of abortions have been performed. And to the degree that at least President Bush now claims there is abortion on demand. He says that's a national tragedy, he said the other day. What effect has it had on the debate that all these abortions are happening? Sidney Callahan: Well, I think you've also seen the growth of groups, like women exploited against abortion, people who have had abortions, who now regret it.

There's been the growth of the idea that there's a post-abortion syndrome. Coop says that he can't prove it, which I believe is true. Robert MacNeil: the Surgeon General Sidney Callahan: The surgeon general, yes. But it has been entered into the... Robert MacNail: You agree with him, it can't be proved that there is evidence. Sidney Callahan: Yet. But who knows what that may mean, I think he's saying the truth there. But it is also, but it has been entered into the psychiatric diagnostic and statistic manual as a post-abortion syndrome, like post-Vietnam stress syndrome. So you can't prove that this actually causes it because human beings are too complicated. But it certainly seems to be having an effect on many people, and there are also sleeper effects, things that happen much later, uh than right away. Robert MacNeil: uh, Daniel Callahan, you two have been debating this yourselves, and you keep a civilized calm in the debate, which is unusual in the abortion debate. Can you remove the anger and passion from this subject without removing it from out of the political world?

I mean, there wouldn't be the current campaign to turn the law unless there were a great deal of strong emotion and passion and feeling behind that. So is your debate real in that sense? Daniel Callahan: Our debate is real. I think perhaps the way we differ from many others is that we have debated it a long time. And we respect each other. We know that we know that all good and all evil doesn't lie on one side or the other. I know people on the pro-life side. I respect them as people. I know they're conscientious. I know that they're not nasty, oppressive kinds of people. And I also know, of course, that it's an anguish, difficult problem. So for me, at least, I come down the pro-choice side because I think that while we ought to respect the fetus and we ought to take it seriously, on balance, I think there's enough doubt about the moral status of the fetus that we ought to give the benefit of the doubt to women. To me, it's a difficult question. I think anger is understandable, but I wish we could recognize the genuine difficulty and depth of the struggle here. And recognize that anger does not help us, that it's perhaps an expression of the way we feel, but we have to really probe and think very hard on this matter.

Robert MacNeil: Let me ask you that, Sidney Callahan. If there were no anger, would there be any movement? Would there be Operation Rescue? Sidney Callahan: Well, I think moral indignation can be different from anger. And thinking that somebody's conscience is leading them to the wrong conclusion is different than saying that they are an evil person. So I think that you grant that the other person or people are acting out of good motives. They're doing what they think they ought to do. You're doing what you think you ought to do. And seems to me, the most important way you get progress is to persuade and to respect the way you persuade is for respecting others and trying to show that your position is more altruistic, more rational, more reasonable, and more just. And that's a way I think we've had progress. This is the way slavery was changed. Robert MacNeil: Briefly, do you think Roe vs Wade is going to be overthrown or overturned? Sidney Callahan: Eventually, yes And then, yeah, I think so.

I think that it was a Dredd Scott decision that it will be overthrown. Now, how soon this will happen and how it will happen? I don't know. But I don't think you have to actually say, I can solve a problem before you can say, I know this solution isn't right. I think you can say this is unjust and let us get together and think how to do it better. Robert MacNeil: Do you agree it's going to be probably going to be overturned? Daniel Callahan: I suspect that the addition of one or two more Supreme Court justices of a conservative bent could indeed do that. Then the issue will be thrown back into the States and will have 50 squabbles going on. Moreover, I suspect we're going to have a very erratic situation and probably an unjust situation because of the very difference from state to state. However, the legal question ends, of course, the moral debate will go on. I'm struck that in other parts of the world, it continues to go on. The laws change. They shift. They get modified over time. We are going to have a continuing debate, one way or the other in this country. I'm sure that if the Supreme Court changes, there will be a civil disobedience movement of very powerful dimensions from the other side.

And then we'll see what happens. Robert MacNeil: All right. Well, thank you both Daniel Callahan and Sidney Callahan for joining us. Thank you. Jim? Jim Lehrer: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight, a new look at El Salvador and the confirmation testimony of Robert Mossbacher. (opening music) (music) Jim Lehrer: The Central American nation of El Salvador is next tonight. It was a subject of continuing attention and concern for the Reagan administration and now again for the Bush administration. Just today, it was announced that Vice President Dan Quayle will go to El Salvador next week as part of a visit to Latin America, his first official foreign trip. Correspondent Charles Krauss reports on what he is likely to find. Charles Krauss: By any measure in the months immediately before and after President Reagan's inauguration, the situation in El Salvador was grim. Soldiers and right-wing death squads were killing Salvadorans and Americans with impunity. Cuban-backed guerrillas were gaining ground throughout the country.

El Salvador's provisional junta had little real power. El Salvador's army was incapable of fighting a guerrilla war. By all accounts, it was brutal and corrupt. Ernesto Rivas-Galant is El Salvador's ambassador to the United States. He remembers what his country was like in January 1981. Ernesto Rivas-Galant: I remember vividly, much as you do, the nights, the endless nights that we spent counting the explosions of bombs that went off. There were nights when we stopped counting because we lost count of the explosions we heard. It was a society which couldn't find itself. Charles Krauss: U.S. Ambassador William Walker says that in Washington, the new administration viewed El Salvador as a crisis. It's first in Central America. Ambassador William Walker: I think the concern could be very easily summed up in the headlines that were in the major newspapers and news magazines in the United States,

which was, is El Salvador going to devolve into another Vietnam? Is the United States going to have to send in troops? Charles Krauss: El Salvador was the first test of the administration's tough, hard-line approach to revolution in Central America and the Third World. The strategy was based on counterinsurgency lessons learned in Vietnam. Small unit tactics, helicopters, U.S. trainers, but no U.S. troops. Plenty of arms, ammunition, and communications gear. The administration would pour more than $3 billion worth of economic and military aid into El Salvador between 1981 and the end of last year. At first, the heavy emphasis was on support for the Salvadoran Army. Robert White: The Secretary of State, Alexander Hague, told President Ronald Reagan, is it Mr. President, this is one you can win. Well, it turned out that Alexander Hague was dead wrong as he was in everything about Latin America. Charles Krauss: Robert White, a career foreign service officer, was U.S. Ambassador to El Salvador at the time of President Reagan's inauguration.

He was put on a hit list and fired by Hague less than three weeks after the new administration took office. Robert White: It was my role as U.S. Ambassador under the Carter Administration to back change. And when the Reagan administration came in, the powers that emerged in El Salvador, rejected human rights, rejected reform, and rejected any negotiation with the revolutionary elements. And so you had quite an abrupt and startling change. Ambassador William Walker: From early on, we were giving military assistance here to try to professionalize, to try to make the armed forces of this country something that they were not in the 1970s. So the Reagan administration, I think much to its credit, decided to try to build up, try to professionalize the armed forces of this country in an attempt to stabilize the situation. I mean, that is what armed forces are all about.

Charles Krauss: But in the field, U.S. guerrilla warfare experts and moderates in Washington argued the need for a political component as well. Eventually, it was decided to defeat the guerrillas El Salvador was to become a democracy. In 1984, the administration, threw its weight behind Christian Democrat Jose Napoleon Duarte, who was elected president. The guerrillas boycotted the vote, but the election was a milestone. And when it was over, Duarte was warmly received in Washington. Ernesto Rivas-Galant: One of my most unforgettable memories is when in May of 1984, President elect Jose Napoleon Duarte came to Washington and he went to Congress. A very, very seldom have I seen a more spontaneous ovation than the one given to President Duarte, wherever he went in Congress. I guess, in a sense, Congress was saying to him, hey, you're the man we've been waiting for for all these years.

Ambassador William Walker: I think Napoleon Duarte has a very, very good image in our Congress. I think there is a consensus that we never had in the Nicaragua policy, but we do have in the Salvador policy that in great part forms around the person of Napoleon Duarte and what he stands for and what he's been trying to do here. So I think that has been very important. Charles Krauss: Despite a devastating earthquake in 1986 and other signs that Duarte's government was in trouble, the consensus in Washington held. Throughout most of President Reagan's second term, the conventional wisdom said El Salvador was under control. But now there's a growing sense that history may repeat itself. Then El Salvador, which became the first test of the Reagan doctrine in 1981, could become the first crisis for the Bush administration in Central America in the months ahead. The reason, many of the same economic and political factors which helped precipitate the first crisis in 1981 are present again or on the horizon. Further complicating the situation, Duarte's health. Last summer, he was diagnosed as being terminally ill with cancer.

But even before his illness, Duarte had lost much of his political strength and his government, much of its credibility. After the earthquake, there were charges of massive corruption in government aid and relief programs. Charges which both Duarte and the U.S. Embassy ignored. Even more damaging politically, Duarte also failed to make good on his campaign promises to revive El Salvador's war-shattered economy. In San Salvador, the rich continue to live in lavish homes and to enjoy the extraordinary privileges of wealth and power. But for most of El Salvador's five million people, poverty remains their unending way of life. There's also been an upsurge of political violence this past year. The guerrillas have killed several mayors and threatened others, forcing about 30 of them to resign. But most damaging for Duarte in the United States, the reemergence of right-wing death squads. Typically, they dumped their victims along road sides late at night.

(someone speaking Spanish) Charles Krauss: According to the director of the Catholic Church Human Rights Office in San Salvador, the death squads operate with the knowledge and often with the cooperation of the army. It's a charge Ambassador Walker does not take lightly. Ambassador Walker: Violence, yes, increase of violence, yes. But that is a far cry from government sanctioned or security service sanctioned or political party sanctioned violence against opponents. There is no evidence of that latter phenomenon that I have seen. Charles Krauss: Ruben Zamora disputes that. A leader of the non-communist left in El Salvador, Zamora recently returned home after eight years in exile. He says the increase in death squad activity is aimed at his leftist political supporters. Who's behind it? One clue, Zamora says, the terror is carried out with impunity. Ruben Zamora: And who could grant impunity to you in this country? Only the security forces and the armed forces. Because they use fear as an instrument of control.

Charles Krauss: Thousands of Salvadorans have been killed by the desquads, including Oscar Romero, the archbishop of San Salvador. Yet despite efforts by the United States, the criminal court system in El Salvador does not function. Since 1980, not one military officer or one civilian has ever been convicted of a political crime. Critics claim the Reagan administration did not do enough, especially when the armed forces appear to have been involved. Ambassador Walker says the task is almost overwhelming. Ambassador Walker: The police are unable to investigate properly. They don't know how to collect evidence. The courts don't know what to do with evidence once they get it. The justice system in this country, in my opinion, doesn't work. It does not produce justice for people who become entangled in it.

Charles Krauss: Yet the government's inability to provide justice is a principle reason why the insurgency began in the first place. And now, the guerrillas once again appear to be on the offensive. In December, they attacked the defense ministry and army headquarters in the heart of San Salvador, not more than a mile from the U.S. ambassador's resident. (spanish speaker) Charles Krauss: Army commander René Emilio Ponce says the attack on the Estato Mayor was a sign of desperation. Indiscriminate terrorism, he told us, because only civilians were killed. The ambassador agrees with Ponce's assessment. Ambassador Walker: Throwing grenades over the walls or throwing these romper bombs over the walls of the Estato Mayor, which is just a couple of blocks from here. It's dramatic. I do not think it shows that you have a increasingly strong capability to really take on the army. The guerrillas are weaker than they were a year ago, much weaker than they were six, seven years ago. Charles Krauss: But the fact remains, a guerrilla commando team was able to attack the Estato Mayor and escape in broad daylight.

Robert White: The fact is that after 65, 70,000 deaths and almost four billion dollars worth of assistance, the one indisputable result that we have is the emergence of the strongest, most resilient, most resourceful guerrilla movement that the Western Hemisphere has ever seen. Charles Krauss: White blames the Reagan administration, which he says gambled and lost its bet that it could defeat the guerrillas militarily. Robert White: But it never came up with the economic means or never came up with the doctrines of human rights of reform. They could have transformed El Salvador while the military provided the shield. The shield was there and the shield functioned for a few years. But then the shield is now wearing out and behind that shield, the Reagan administration never functioned effectively. The people of El Salvador perceive their lot as far far worse that ever has been and that does not argue well for the future of democracy in El Salvador.

Ambassador Walker: I can certainly not predict the future. I cannot predict if something spectacular will not happen here or will happen here. I think we have in place, El Salvador has in place, the wherewithal to meet most events that I can imagine and that the place will not fly apart as a result of any specific event or any collection of events. If we can maintain the path we've been on for the last, and I hate to say eight years because that makes it sound like it was exclusively a Reagan administration policy and effort, but if we can maintain the assistance that we have provided to this country for a number of years into the future, I think we will end up very, very proud of what we have done here. Robert White: But how the Bush administration might react to an immediate crisis in El Salvador is unclear. Already the new administration has said its concerned.

It's also said its goal is to develop a less ideological, more pragmatic policy toward El Salvador and the rest of Central America in the months ahead. Jim Lehrer: Today the left wing guerrillas opposing the Duarte government said they would participate in presidential elections if they were postponed from March until September. That offer was rejected later in the day by key Duarte adviser. He said it would be unconstitutional to delay the vote. (opening music) Robert MacNeil: Finally tonight we continue excerpts from confirmation hearings for new members of the Bush cabinet. Testifying today was Robert Buzz Mosbacher. He's a long timeBush friend and one of four Texans in the cabinet. His new assignment marks his first government post. Reportedly worth millions Mosbacher developed an oil and gas exploration business. He became a leading Bush fundraiser in 1980 and again in 88.

At today's hearing he was asked if he would enforce some of the restrictive requirements included in last year's omnibus trade bill. Robert Buzz Mosbacher: Trade relations must be a two-way street and that while we certainly do and have opened our nation to the goods of the world we expect that to be reciprocated. And if it is not, I don't see that we have any course but to strongly, and fairly, objectively, totally enforce, the bill that Congress and its wisdom has passed as a 1988 omnibus trade act. I also feel that we have an opportunity to, by enforcing our laws, open up to a greater extent the rest of the world for our goods and services. (Question from?) If you had it in your power to change one thing in the Department of Commerce that would probably be in your estimation be the key to help small business to establish and survive.

And I know you've probably given this some thought. What would it be? Just this off the top of your head. We're interested in knowing that. Robert Buzz Mosbacher: Senator, you know, what I see is perhaps not so much needing to change things, or change those structures, change the setup. Much is really being a catalyst and moving forward on some things are already in place. For instance a foreign commercial service, US commercial service making us more competitive getting a better dialogue going with the business community. I'm talking about the small business and middle size so that he knows how to export and he knows how to be more competitive and he knows more about his competition. (Question from?) We look at a situation where you have a consortium put together in Japan on high definition television where the government there has put in some of the seed money for research.

And then we see the same type of thing being duplicated in Europe. My concern is that we do more in the way of commercial application and trying to assist. And I'd like to have your comments on it. Robert Buzz Mosbacher: On events that I share with you the concern about our capabilities in the advanced high tech areas and frankly are losing the advantages we've started out with. And particularly in HDTV, what I've been told is that it is not just another stage of television, another consumer good, but it is maybe the beginning of a whole new generation of electronic development that computers all aspects of it or someone explained it to me it's really a very high grade highly defined black box that happens to have a television screen in front of it. And the briefings I've had to date, it appears to me, that high definition television is specifically a high priority item in which both the Japanese and perhaps the Europeans are moving well ahead of us in a very organized cohesive way with the private sector and the public sector working together.

Certainly these briefings have also indicated to me that although it's very, very late in the game it's not too late. If we move quickly and together and both the legislative and executive branches and if further studies bear this out that we can get back in the game that we should do it through consortiums through cooperation and need to move. And need to move quickly and collectively in this way. (comment, question from ?) I think you'll be a good and possibly a great sector of commerce. If I may I'd like to spend the remainder of my time making a statement of frustration. Over the years I've noted a bureaucratic reluctance to be aggressive, aggressive in support of American industry.

In fact there seems to be some embarrassment to be pro-American. I hope you'll be able to convince your bureaucrats to be less reluctant to be aggressive and not be embarrassed to be pro-American. Thank you. (Senator?) The answer is yes. Robert Buzz Mosbacher: Yes, Senator. (Senator? )You've got an aggressive name buzz. You can start off with that. That's good. Thank you very much. Senator Noah is right on target. (question from?) How do you think that the Department of Commerce or your department will interact with the office of the U.S. Trade Representative and say the Department of Agriculture? I come from a state that we have to depend a lot on exports. We're an exporting state. And I'm just wondering if we don't get into a bureaucratic maze whenever we start forming trade policy.

And I'd like to know how you're going to interact with those two other offices. Robert Buzz Mosbacher: So Senator, first of all I have to tell you I asked one of our fellow designate candidates after that question and he said welcome to Washington. Now I'll try and give you a more definitive answer. Senator, the 1988 omnibus trade law and at a previous legislation, there are certain areas that are definitely within the purview of the U.S.TR, there are others that are in the purview of the state department or defense department. This department is in charge of making America competitive and making America's exports build, and representing business that obviously includes agribusiness in helping build markets for this country. Robert MacNeil: Also, a world-class sailor, Mosbacker, told the committee, the Commerce Department, through its National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, would help President Bush honor his campaign pledge to clean up the environment. (music)

Jim Lehrer: Again, the major story of this Tuesday, President Bush held his first White House meeting with the leaders of Congress. Participants said there was a warm, friendly atmosphere and that Mr. Bush had said he would have a budget deficit proposal ready by the middle of February. Good night, Robin. Robert MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour for tonight. We'll be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert McNeil. Good night. The funding for the McNeil era news hour is provided by AT&T, combining everything people like about telephones, with everything they expect from computers to make everything about information easy, AT&T. Additional funding is provided by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, a catalyst for change, and this station and other public television stations, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Music

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