1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-16; Part 4 of 4

i mean personally the matter is for president nixon and members of his immediate family for the past four years this area actually all the contacts that i had brought relative to these matters were handled through either john ehrlichman or john being set back to discuss the benefit from january of nineteen sixty nine to avoid typing hundred and seventy two for certain surplus funds would have accrued mostly from the primary campaign of the nineteenth primary period of the nineteen sixty eight campaign palmer a state stands was the individual who might've bell i disagree grexit dispersants third eye to solicit early pledges of financial support to the husband's nineteen seventy two campaign began in november of nineteen seventy eight this assignment was completed

in the spring of nineteen seventy two the original records of this activity would turn over to the finance committee after mr stan featherstone they also finance chairman on the wife of a nineteen seventy two my secretary of the original files early transferred to the finance committee the section on my part was intended to ensure the continued confidentiality of the contact that i had had with various contributors with whom i've dealt with in the spirit options open number one or participation in the formulation of any planned conspiracy to cover up that incident or actual campaigns appetite or unethical activity why actions in the period immediately

following the raid in which involve the raising the funds to provide for the legal defense of the watergate defendants and for the support of their families were planted in the belief that such was proper a necessary to describe what i assumed to be a moral obligation though the reasons the fact that i had been directed to undertake these actions by the number two and number three men on the white house staff made it absolutely incomprehensible to me that my actions in this regard could've been regarded in any way as improper or unethical i'm here before you it is not my purpose to testify for or against an individual i wish to cooperate fully with the canadian and that's where i'm not ready to answer your questions to the best of my ability to come back and that when you first meet president

nixon it was in the mid fifties but today it became a time that you're not going to play a role in the campaign fundraising for the president when was that friday night the senator campaigned in nineteen hundred and sixty eight i would associate finance chairman of that campaign now what if anything do you do with leftover from the nineteen sixty campaign mistress then sir in mid january of nineteen sixty nine i asked me to accept the trusteeship are certain that surplus funds from the campaign as to exactly where in new york

yes sir mr harlan yu and civilian at a later time also mr for michel and others who are clearly stand in the shoes of those people that i talked a little yes sir it was good morning beginning in life i think it was in nineteen hundred and sixty nine and would you please describe the legal matters in which you hear them work better well initially leave work was had to do with the acquisition of the audience and comedy which was to become the western white house we've also done work on his behalf an estate planning and also love don't have done the political attacks work in conjunction with a cpa

you still guessing lester time now you've had a moment is the relationship the president of the maine campaign fund operation and also as opposed to meet with the president for this search parents here today i've gone back over my records and to the best of my body my records that have shown that i've met women probably four or five times since march of sixty nine alone or with one or two other yes sir there were about eight on that relationship or telephone

relationship who in the white house you have an second sending your activities president lee and john ehrlichman and then after john dean came to the white house in mid nineteen seventy year old jundi with the ferguson comeback that when he did speak to them on legal matters that is huge and in your mind you are speaking with the president as for whether that is when will be when we first met raise money when it is the need to campaign in that now it was in november of nineteen hundred and seventy by mr hall and what position the us senate from the beginning in nineteen seventy two through the long

now in nineteen seventy two did you have fun in your possession that were raised during an excuse to guess what was that day in february nineteen seventy two yesterday what you do with those on and on and then threw in there the first few days of the war in nineteen seventy two i i closed albeit checking accounts that there may have been one was in new york and i believe two and california and sent all those checks to mr sloan of the finance committee and wash them and i also close to an empty boots are all safe deposit boxes boxes and the transfer those funds to mr sloan so it sort of my accounts you know about how much money was involved in turning over the mornings long as for

a much in the first week i would say i'm writing of fenway nineteen seventy two the total was nine hundred and fifteen thousand and of that total would include the two hundred and thirty three thousand care ash and not only six hundred and seventy thousand in the checking account balances after a journalist wanting you destroy any records yes sir i do because of what records and won after i turned over again the money's i transferred my files of the people are saying the pledges that it saved the essentials of my records to mr stanton to the finance committee it was my belief than that my records that i still retained were wholly original

and supportive of what i consider to be a racial records and once i was certain in my own mind that the original records were had been in fact transferred to the finance committee and i'd record my secretary of this is harvey to destroy those parcels or the records for the reason of confidentiality records and that there were there were song answer when he resigned as of april seventh nineteen hundred seventy two wire at the finance committee had any contact with gordon liddy yes or would you describe the nature of a contractor andy assignments to educate women as best as i can recall yesterday my first the acquaintance with the mr libby was in the latter part of march oh i think i

have lunch with others who witnessed a libyan january when i first met him but for the first time that it really is work with him was the latter part of march when he came onboard were the finance committee as counsel to the committee in my vision is associate chairman i gave him were several assignments asking for legal opinions in the light and i can recall one or two travis that i asked him to take to contact attorneys for contributors to help in legal trouble you had no with immigration the union cause than an advancement and again and fifty thousand dollars loan that everyone

wanted to be a while mr stanton come to me and ask me for these funds as an advance for special expenses for the forthcoming campaign with a receipt given due for their boss sir now are you aware of the transactions were widely and fifty thousand dollars left the committee that election presents finance committee and win over the white house plan you tell us briefly on knowledge about that place about the but wells first few days of maple and i'm not certain that i was called by mr higby from the white house and was asked as to how much the pledge would be available for transfer to the white house i've been checked with mr slow i

call it really be back and tell them that the farmers three hundred fifty thousand in cash and mr sloan say that would be available then mr libbey i think there were one or two additional calls back and forth and it's my recollection of mr higby then call an informative mr strong lin the mortar the finance committee three hundred thousand dollars and again this is within a week of april seventh or thereabouts and then the as with us give me the finals in time for the cup by mr strong which he did and then as i best remembered for mr badge the funds or put in my office and me a finance committee mr strong team

or one thirty or two in the afternoon and uncertain and i picked up the briefcase from my office and i left the office less or they were you know the nomination rules of allah no sir i'm not lately and has gone above the systems as joe lamb and that this request of all sir you know what the request why the league any information i know that was my assumption and it may have been expressed to me what was my assumption that it would be used for farming produces i would think within seven days of april seventh nineteen seventy two as you

hear it would you repeat that others involving the watergate which took place in june seventeen some time in that period that you receive a low stands on the washington one is my my recollection is that i received a call from mr stanza probably on the early in the week that twentieth or thereabouts to come to washington and to meet with mr sloan to reconcile your reference to the watergate break in how do you read the report rumors mean yes i did find one at st agnes informed him that i had met with business loan and that we were in agreement on the records and he said fine and as far as he was concerned that i had i was discharged from that responsibility

and my account balance and additional a record fifty openings as my own little better knowing that the original record was india in the finance office i mean other than in casual conversation i can't follow the conversation well it was rather than just that and being a very major news item that was the extent of an urban schools with relationship to answer mr ward you file it is clear that the committee and senate will again today at the un that was it the station

i know yes i do cause as i remember being a telephone conversation that must have been called me it was in the early afternoon mid afternoon on the twenty eighth and told me that that was a matter for stream importance that i return to or come back to washington that the first available flight to undertake a very important assignment thank you mr ivan watson that six six fifteen to thirty that's the fall in mourning now what to do next and i then took a

cab in the town and they are checked into the us that are held hotel you then we either at that time more time at the tsa check in in his public awareness but there's a call to being around as an investor call around nine o'clock in the morning set at the age in his office an executive office building and what transpired is a quote about the senate is saying withdrawal since those and recalling the conversation that i tell in the washroom of the statler and i come over iraq is right now if that's what you wish do you hear it and

the meat in front of the hotel and i said all right that's a business than ever before but there was a nice day and i still ride on colorado region and then left the hotel i was the bottom line thirty i would yes and i think i saw him coming up through the bar and then i cross the state and i suggested that we have coffee and they get he said no let's just walk in the park which we did a lot of the time and i recall it the finest one up on the bench and noah made some like this is an indication to me that i should do likewise would you in an

indication that perhaps will be an uncertain i don't understand but do remember that he did well i would think so well the reason for this calling for my coming back to watchman was that that it was necessary to have talked to me about a very important sign namely that certain use the editorial we said we would like to have you raise funds for the for the defense of the defendants and for the support of their families mr gonzalez that's correct

now that they were well i just remember that they said the watergate defendants that time that i wasn't even certain it at that point in time that i knew their names yes many questions about that in my conversation with him i asked whether or not it wouldn't be preferable to have a public committee formed to raise funds for these people and for these forces it was wonderful maybe make the mortgage or homes or raise funds in that way until a republican it could be established his answer to that was that in that there was no time for this the republican committee members

might be misinterpreted and the biggest wave of the sign and bess done with this request became a much money might be able to get my recollection is that he indicated fifty two hundred thousand dollars mr simon yes since the effort might be misinterpreted me stress that it's a secret message he made a very strong yeah audie indicating that their fears so it became known that it would might jeopardize the campaign and win because of misinterpretation as to the reasons for raising these funds and for the helpless people are you know how much was beginning to which defendants was a

discussion about that yes or there was a cover up i ask for distribution the sinaloa not to may indicate that mr horowitz be the person who wrote would be the person who would be giving the directions in this assignment as to specific amounts and specific individuals and as i confessed recall this conversation i was a little perplexed on this because i do you know these people and this well i don't know but as to industry i didn't then

again my best recollection is that he indicated that point that perhaps <unk> us what's a might be the one to act as the distributor for the foreign service has testified before this committee before it is yes i did two or three times and told me in nineteen sixty nine until luckily october first nineteen seventy one and i had three conversations are two or three conversations during that period it would be useful as well i knew that i knew that he had been acting in an undertaking assignments for the white house four that they're in and i certainly knew that he had the confidence of whoever it was that he was working with and when he mentioned the most

us woods is a someone to do this i said that i would certainly have confidence in him in you know but you know that it would be somebody well i know that you and maybe it was a retired new york city a police officer was happening and i was certain that he was someone that could be trusted in the community he was using the most well mr dean well it worked with the fact that everyone in the white house but of course with the mystery reported minister of england and he

also at work closer to home now you did not mention their names in this conversation now it ever been given any other signs of this nature in the best of those do you accept this idea ms doucet i suppose i have no no to being censored mid nineteen seventy and i had complete trust in the man and knowing that he was the counsel that i accepted this i walk back to the statler hilton and debate within a matter of minutes after a us back to the hotel i called mr stands i have been given a

special assignment as much cash is that it would have been available i think i mentioned and fifty to a one hundred thousand dollars and i asked him about the possibility of health minister simon he said that he would see what he could do he said that he would have as i remembered things that you would have to go to a safe deposit box with that he would meet me at the three years that i don't know in my room thank you five thousand one hundred dollars bills in one hundred dollar bills and the image you know the source of that money and after that he did as to forty five thousand he said that it was the balance i think that to be that he had earlier given me and said that he was given in to to me now but he did not

indicate as i remembered all that all be a source of me oh he's lying and so we know in each other a number of years i told him it was for a very important assignment that i have been advised that it was in complete confidence that i could not tell him the nature of this i mean that you have to trust me and they said of course i do trust you are and with it came into france i know until the following day when a journalist once

yesterday it seems to me that i asked him to get in touch with mr caulfield so that he knew well and who new jersey last week says number in new york and to ask donors to call he'll call me and to me that number and then i would alter your last words and that's that is what i recall that idea i received a call and then promised us with late in the afternoon on and me and the sea was the twenty nine and asking him like i'm gonna wash and the next day under thirty why you know i just said that i wanted to see him or is it to my room mr doonan

yes the purpose of this assignment was to provide funds for these defendants for their legal help and also to provide support for their families dina given to me that it must be an absolute secrecy and confidentiality and he thoroughly understood him and then took the funds and left and went back to new york you again yes i do on friday morning at which time i call in the district i contacted nick us whats that mr wessel it's with wouldn't be heard and watched and that afternoon and that i've raised seventy five thousand one hundred dollars

in my room and stop or coughing or the show mr ivins no well it could have been but i had my recollection is that we met in my room now if i know that you met last week you stressed the secrecy mr wessel yes as simon we were but in my conversations with us in our talks between ourselves there was agreed that we should used on those talk between top on both and the

courses that later became a procedure that in his conversations with various of these people to whom he was he would be he would use an alias no i am i think there were several dozen amateurs that was one of you know really suggested well i don't know if he did no idea but in our conversation that mr who would give us the actions or give me the actions i would kind of material estimates that direction he wouldn't make the contact with the agent businesses

it just is well the givers says if there is a typical an author's but it would i would receive a calling either for mr bean four mister room with instructions to get x amount of funds over to one of the defendants or one of the attorneys i would then call mr yo ass words and they're so important reaching into your home and then you and i would call him or from my paypal you would then the people maybe number of another people in thirty minutes later i would call him and he would be able

to you've been a reporter and people receive it call mr just calling the writer and then after rivers called than the writer we called and this is from the writers while i don't recall that we have any other names for anyone else you know i only the other is a girl named the name of all and know when i was at the statler industrialize woods came down to receive the seventy five thousand one hundred that i'd received mr stan

we can sort it shelf in the room and rapid and along the way and so i after that we will fall in the laundry is as to how much money and yet available just a minute what is that of all the players involved and the defendants in and certain of these attorneys are representing tsarnaev the defendants no no these activities yes or no

answer and it was stated was to furnish a legal help for these people and to punish them with them as war money which means no i didn't and probably ninety percent of the time

the other ten percent was that intellectual discussion with him in his office or more usually and mr bean so it's now being received again as i've tried to reconstruct this is true that the first instruction i receive which i passed industry was once was too twenty five thousand dollars mr district attorney here in washington and as i call it this is probably room that's when july first through june july sixth or seventh there were a number of calls i would talk to you mr beam distillery oh i would then call a few last words to internment called caddie he would have some response was to kathy and i would call

backup leader mr dean and the other was the disarmament gist of it was that the metric that you carry refused to accept reforms and that in that manner that's good again with the same result and then i think then that was the mr bittman and then mr bittman and i think this may have been when the minister the name river as was used to that but my recollection be in this tibetan received probably some time in the second week of july

i'm telling you yes sir yes because that will receive money volatility dismissal most of the remaining funds went to mrs cohen who in fact was the person who did it strengthen that her and he distributed to these other attorneys and this is not this out now when the next twenty years is a series of may we received this money out

twenty one involved in this it's i'm just days was that was on july nineteen and twenty one but that i think i was asked to come back i think my ear mr dean of a thorough and to meet with them as trevino mr roland mr dean's office in the executive office building a certain amount of that was some forty thousand dollars was received little wrote that time and we're interested in the city's archives you see any instructions at the time i may have lifted a shot not certain as to what you do is just one thousand dollars in cash as it was intentionally the nomination but that was primarily one hundred dollar bill i

wanted to do a business blog mom i took these funds and they go into your late that afternoon in a state of the regency hotel and get the funds to mr us once it came to my room and the regency probably around eight thirty or nine million now you visited but this time after day show i was being urged to call for my testimony that the funds that were given to me by mr rumer that's listed by me recently given to me to be given the mystery lies woods this time i was you go mr dean on the top row that to raise

additional funds and i had it i began to have a degree of concern about this a sign of what the book began to question that wasn't the nature of the covert operations of the fact that you're paying this money to defendants in a little description of bases and i think the primary reason for my concern was the secrecy and the clandestine covert nature of this activity james bond their scenario answer and i was very distasteful to me and i ended it created this the degree of concern and they and concern was sufficient to at a certain moment i wanted to

do john ehrlichman to confirm that john dean and did in fact have the authority to directly to undertake this assignment second that i wanted him to shore me as to the propriety of this assignment in any event i requested a meeting with the john ehrlichman my records indicate that i met with him in his office a three thirty on july twenty six describe for us what i said an animal they sit you answer me as i've stated the reason for that may was too was to go get the assurances to foreign ministers also that this time you were raised some additional funds as cern this is this would be the first time a few days and i would be going to an

outside contributor the i know that the secrecy involved in this is that's a very distasteful that was probably the primary an item of concern feeding this concern that i hadn't other factors that would include the eu mr earl holliman <unk> win back around april seventh that indicated to me that i had been involved in this fundraising activity for such a long period that we wrote once again our floor vote was interrupted the proceedings so we'll also take a short break public television's covering to the senate watergate hearings will continue after a pause for station identification on a bridge to coverage of these

hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service the pope terry and pike continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on

presidential campaign activities you again correspondent jim lehrer as the senators return to the very narrow majority council sam dash is asking her the comeback about getting john erlichman was ok to raise money for the watergate defendants come back it's because baseball teams is that a real concern political money

and why well i i said no simon and i i went through it as far as the secrecy and not how the secrecy was swat ma

indicated to him that that this is something that was known for intimate i wanted him to fall and the media the press was was given a concern the year the whole secrecy thing the press or this and that i'm concerned about and i wanted then i said that john i want to tell me and i'm in and i can remember very vividly because i looked at him and i i said i don't even your family you know my room and my family you know that my family and my reputation mean everything to me and it's just absolutely

necessary and john that you tell me the first day john nemeth has the authority to direct me in the society that's a proper simon and that time to go forward and they continually receive it is a it does have the authority or the new you article four i said and commenting on the secrecy here and explained that as saying that but for the sake of syria this whole simon and getting these funds to these people for this purpose to get into the person be misinterpreted and then i'm never use the various treaties that they could they would have our heads in their last which again would indicate to me that it would jeopardize the campaign and he says something like this is political dynamite

i don't remember that but i remember the key events in the inner latin their laps are remarking might've said political dynamite but the effect of all this most of that was through the effect actually was that it what about the concern that i inherited that the old upper limit of this medium and i went out of them at certain that was for me to go back to california it's this contributor this first can trigger that would approach in this program or even though he told them to maintain the secrecy and that if it ever now they say i think of the name of the democrats are in their laps might jeopardize the campaign that would suggest you any impropriety know if not why not it just and it suggested that maybe the concern was

that that this would have a vivid if it got into the press misinterpreted without of innocents it would be misinterpreted and whatever way that the thunder begins being given to these people are you well the misinterpretation would be the us who has been done the silence its people within about any other interpretation i did one interpretation if you have a wide interpretation as i stated in my opening statement that i felt no the green lighted been given that these people in some manner express a lawyer and possibly maybe like this

just by chance or they had gone forward on this idiotic on stupid thing into the water in this watergate break in an illegal act and that song and i never and i couldn't i did not know and i never know know a coma mr bean a mystery reported ideas at the feeling that someone had given the going in some manner and that someone felt that even though these people are done in an illegal act the decent thing to do is to provide them with the blues provide them with lawyers and provide them with family support and not not the us or fire and about in this plan rather than actually supporting know background knowledge at all and

that this is just the impression that i i receive no i thought of frank wheeler the dna of various human thing hear more i know i have such trust in the industry being unearthed early going that i if i was a prize by them ashore by than there was in my mind there was no possibility there be any year i know yes i recall i think i picked up a possibly a thirty thousand dollars the next day that western group gave to me in his office at the seminole one consonant and that you and

i may have on the cbs show recall i was i had i call them after the last words that came down to washington and the state of the statler hilton and i i gave in those funds in his room with a stutter don't want to answer you raise money i called mr thomas b jones sometime between that was august first from august with an uncertain as to the day and you i give that i like mine sam he had earlier indicated to me that he would have funds for me any special need elizabeth jones is the

chairman of north or corporation in california history of personally i'm really needed any help the president's reelection campaign his earlier statement to me and he indicated immediately that he'd be glad to see mia and no we worked out a time that was initially convenient i went to his office in the century city and muscle cells i think it was in the mid afternoon and met with him there and we had a fifteen minute meeting or thereabouts and he took from his best day package and the head of intimate with my briefcase left his office and went back to new orleans it was seventy five thousand dollars in cash

and you know with the nomination in one hundred dollar bills as i remember it why i want to know again just as with mr stanza i told him that it was for a special assignment i did not i told it was an assignment that i could not reveal the nature of it that i've been given an assignment by someone in authority the white house i think it would be yes now how within the leg was the next day would pass with a following that us with him on to california

at my request and i met him out in orange county in front of the order and an orange county near my office in newport beach and to answer it i asked him to meet me in front of the airport are integral role in my car picked him up we grow apart and taught i gave him the fund's i think we probably reviewed our own notes as to how much had been received and how much administrative and to home and then after i think was a half are so i let him out in front of the orange county airport and you know again this demand for the transmission of the finals and what this article are secret that did it that's right yes sir

presumably that that night obama does that was heavy operation well my memory is that within two days after that i was in washington i think i saw mr erlichman at that time and i called him out of the fact had raised seventy five thousand from iowa mr jones without a sign that's my recollection at the time i met mr woodman i think there are other things we discussed whether it was just fine without without more houses is you're doing you know in no way whatsoever is esther this assignment yeah absolutely

none are now into the sites question that probably in mid august and then continuing not to my recollection of mr bean initial wrote contacted me and indicating they needed additional funds and by this time in late august bowl a degree of concern that come back on it come back on meat to the level that i know that i did not want to spend any longer in this in this society was andrew no it was not but what was a secrecy at night that was the primary factor and that is that i think that mystery alaska let's mention some cautionary words the remote from a professional police officer with gave me some pause i think there were other

things that we had in the press but about where he is coming or more a foreign investor and i think it just all appear together was there was enough so that by certainly by ear as i say late august to september i was certain that i would not continue in a society that is gaza's no sir i did not and this is disgusting i don't recall yesterday should i ever discusses taliban didn't want to simply tell them that i would do no more mike

dean they're interchangeable and since we're there were instructions to to disperse those funds radical i think that was the instruction i received was in for in my memory palaces of seventy yes i think though that the words were in immediate there was a direction was for me to have the funds disbursed immediately to him this is hot and then the imbalance of the funds who called well yes i did was about reconciliation within my memory is that the

reconciliation is probably only twenty first of september and i think that was joel rose and i was in the that's my recollection as to the date and at that time i just went through my entire record that i had in my notes and again in the toll funds received whole dispersed and those in that income and out real agreed with mr roose right where in his office well i my recollection is that i as a new shred my notes and he

was smoking and i'm not sure who is newsmagazines with pianos were destroyed we will again with combat as to raise money for the defendants you would do in a more concerns expressed when ever again request have to do to save them yes i was because when you can recall that happening and who was there and i think i may have been approached a once or twice naturally a september twenty first meeting but i read remember a meeting occurred on the nineteenth of january and now washington mr mitchell songs was their estimate was mr mitchell mr dean little room myself and please tell us

who said why would you say i've been asked why mr bean and meeting those voters minutes before the warehouse to the master mitchell one of the same knee in his office and i recall that it was a rainy afternoon and we ran through the rain a half block of seminole in pennsylvania went up to mr mitchell's office when we walk into his office we joined mr mitchell who was sick as seated at his desk and that little rule who was also in the office the amenities that was tricky let the conversation immediately i could say that the purpose of this meeting was to ask me to raise additional funds and immediately as soon as that became known that remains the name for those initial funds for lawyers and for them i

support it i knew i wanted to withdraw as soon as possible and i i was i excused myself within ten minutes at the most ten or fifteen minutes to his presence in his office as surrealistic as discussions on various organized by iowa who is aware of the conversation we're all seated right around business was my recollection that the mustard being led the conversation i don't remember mr dey the trauma room at a dinner conversation yes sir i did that was the end of the oar on raising forty years ago for the question yes it was the immediate reason why it came in

a phone call to save a typewriter literally sue and a few elections is correct mr hughes they do chicken joe as a guest have removed the danes as a teenager in the mayflower hotel could you be mistaken no i don't think i mistakenly think mr dean may be mistaken and he stays a few days later you met in lafayette park he's right it

is election is the northeast of what mr davis testified to what we just have a different memory on this my memory is that we met him in the park orenstein disney i don't like that he also stated that you suggested the use of joining us what's that right now it's just my memory i will join

us two or three times so maybe sixty nine until october first and seventy one and only moreover simon's we're going up rue time my understanding is that he was doing investigative work for me for the last word on the first week of july people answer i remember it's a minute

call i'm not certain whether it was the midst of the numbers tomorrow and striking me that it was to be given these farms oh i've been asked about the meeting on july nineteen which means all correctly about their source so you do he didn't move the passionate of the money in his presence can you tell us the purpose of a million dollars again my recollection of that meeting was that some forty thousand was given to me by masculine mr deans office and there may well and instructions given to me there's no question about the passing of a lot

of money on monday as a three of us were together in his office you about it was an afghan well i think he probably had seen all of the trailers were together in that meeting with a singular <unk> he knows that his best and most euro and i were were seated together one mid september to do research on a phone call telling you to tell us which to give world which ran for a thousand dollars i believe and the yale howard johnson national watergate love me whether wistful and yesterday

mr thompson this particular conversation that was mostly it was to get response to mr morrow i play it is businesses in his writings i want to make it clear that i was interchangeable is nervous concerned that between must remain an official wrote on these instructions are as christians the thrill in the instruction i recall

instructions was an impression new to continue to raise money a human videos on anyone else no i think that mr dino probably the one with the most often about the us continuing as is intimated little room i have spoken to maybe once or twice but i don't thank you for the question the senate the day ended with the pressure up still a bit more to get the

documents the committee wants from the white house with a flair that would have made a playwright proudly committee followed the generally mild testimony of richard moore without a federal aviation administrator alexander butterfield when told how the president's office meetings and telephone conversations were take the white house admits the truth about her fields testimony and says the president is aware of his remarks all of us are suddenly faced with a possibility of been able to listen to a group of tape recordings that could resolve once and for all the basic question of president nixon's possible involvement in the knowledge of the watergate cover up or to jail and watched today's session with us today and heard these revelations along with everyone else and they aren't cottage washington attorney author of the new book the institutional imperative and david epstein adjunct professor of law georgetown university law center in washington now asking a very simple question velma by overstated what we learned today we think history of scientists is of critical importance and the water rules of law that hasn't

been mention too much by the senator's is the best evidence rule dr the point is that to the best evidence of what went on his conversations that john dean testified today is that the cape fear john dean's conversations took place for the president and john dean testified or something else was sobering these conversations in these tapes will be the ones that can lead us to an understanding what happened there it's interesting that mr butterfield said that one of the reasons for keeping these cases for historical record now what could be more important in these historic hearings that are taking place and the wave they are making historical record player at this time is to make these tapes available and that the committee in the public find out what actually happened during these various meetings wallace well i think what you said is true that certainly it's pretty vital evidence is going to come out what fascinated me was the way the white house staff was organized these revelations are just fascinating to see the intricacies of the organization and you see how

everybody was running on his own little set of rails and tending to his own drumbeat i believe mr butterfield said that only for people maybe five including his secretary knew what was going on with the tape recording except that it was being recorded in the depository was with the secret service david what you think of the weather executive privilege could be and vote realistically to withhold these tape recordings from the committee well i think this point the committee is relying quite a lot of public pressure time again senator vacationers a mistake to rule of law that witness has evidence or information is peculiarly within his capability in his possession and he doesn't come forward that information that you can draw an adverse inference then you can presume that if the information were made public by that witness who has it that it would be contrary to the witnesses interests so it's not really

at this point a question of executive privilege but a question of presenting to the public the fact that the president has certain tapes a concerning conversations that he had an act at this point he has made them available mr butterfield suggested that the president was going to base defense on him and the question then is why the president waited until now before making a lonely existence of these tapes bob do you see any realistic way the president could withhold these tapes at the stage of the game i mean about me on the legal side above and beyond executive privilege i'm in public pressure forcing to some way the best answer that i remember a famous statement jefferson was not said john marshall has made his decision now let him enforce the famous for supreme court chief justice president has an awful lot of practical port there's an awful lot in those tapes a lot of

conversations recorded that probably for many reasons he wouldn't want us to one would be one one two conversations in your own living room record and coming up practically can say no sure enough that also poses another interesting question in order to find the portions on the tape that would be relevant to this inquiry somebody used that episode and listen to all of them and you make that point who would that person these two guys from the committee what you guys what kind of balance baby under it could present some very difficult there's some court procedures that have been developed for confidential information where the judge takes the information goes through it in indian chambers and then the judge decides whether it is relevant and it can be released that's been attacked a number of ordinary lawsuit is not giving the defense lawyers played for the defendant a chance to know what can argue with the judge about it but it has been done presumably the reason for adding

take the conversations in the president's own living room so to speak was at some point they would be made available of course the president i presume thought that they would be made available under circumstances in a time of his own choosing hearings have changed the timing of that now i think we are quite right planning up the pressure is enormous for having real at this time and also you're quite right in pointing out that regardless of whether we ever hear the tapes are what conditions that these tape recordings have now become historically the most historically famous tape recordings of the history of united states of europe thank you both very much for the discovery of the presidential debates today may in the short run raise more questions unanswered especially over the committee's ability to get access to them and that's peter ted talk today with chief committee counsel sam dash about that problem mr diers do you seriously think that the white house is reluctant to turn over staff documents is going to make cheap recordings of presidential conversations available of this committee i think the issue anymore probably cause that we're not

dealing here with so called papers that the president that the fight is the second there was about a mile much we may differ on the issue of executive privilege here we're talking about specific conversations with mr dean that even the president has indicated is that no executive privilege where he is way the attorney client privilege and executor of the tissues has already given us a substantial information concerning that seemed to me is quite late monday anybody raising withholding that information as well rummaging through is because we have specific dates now we've set specific information given we now can as for the specific information on national security are no national security about that the disclosure of the existence of the white house tapes is not only the most dramatic thing to come out of that hearing so far it completely alters the situation regarding what the committee sees as its most burning point of inquiry and senator baucus definition it is what the president knew and when he knew it until today john dean looked very

isolated as the president's accusers it was unlikely that anyone coming up in the witness list would have either the motivation or the knowledge to corroborate what didn't claim president nixon knew of a cover up for eight months conversely even after a parade of nixon loyalists including haldeman ehrlichman colson claiming that the president did not know the nation might have remained a skeptical as the gallup and other polls currently show it is the tapes can change all but decisively and completely if the white house agrees to release them they will show that john dean is right or that mr nixon is right the decisive date maybe the conversation of march thirteenth they share when dean clancy discussed both hush money and executive clemency with the president if they actually being nixon conversations and not conclusive there are any number of other conversations colson mitchell alderman an eloquent which could exonerate or incriminate the president all meticulously

recorded in this passion for posterity what remains is this question well mr nixon released the tapes it's hard to conceive of them are refusing to do so the nation knows that john dean has accused the president of conniving in a massive obstruction and just of justice the nation now knows the truth resides not in peoples' hazy or bias memories but on magnetic tape not to release the text or to announce that they had been accidentally erased or destroyed would leave the greater suspicions and they already skeptical public mind well whether that tomorrow night at the same time my colleagues peter change in where this is robert macneil goodnight friend back from washington you been watching gavel to gavel that yielded coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities this coverage is made possible by grants for special events coverage from the corporation for public broadcasting and the ford foundation and has been a production of unpacked and a vision of a greater washington educational

telecommunications association a sewer and then move in