Absolutely Positive

I've been making films for 30 years. My movies have always been a way of exploring subjects of personal interest. When I wondered about religion I made a film about it when I realized I was gay. I made a film about it when I worried about the bomb. I made a film about it. This has become a very expensive form of therapy. A while ago I tested positive for the HIV virus and my doctor told me this means the chances are very strong I'll get AIDS sometime in the years ahead. I was confused because nothing had changed yet. Everything changed. I decided to make a film about it. The nice thing about having a serious disease is that it's OK to say anything you want. People put up with it. I don't know if it's because they feel sorry for you the extra cake at the birthday party because you've been sick syndrome or because they think since you're facing death you're somehow automatically wiser. Both attitude should be encouraged. I asked Janet Kove she produced the film and we started talking to people. The

government says it's more than a million Americans infected with HIV. We did research interviews with 120 of them. What a strange disease. You're sick meaning you have a deadly virus but you're well meaning you probably don't feel sick. I wanted to know how are people handling the news. Testing positive change their lives. How afraid are they of getting AIDS. We eventually chose the stories of 11 men and women who represent a cross-section of the epidemic as most everybody knows by now. AIDS was first identified in this country as an illness affecting gay man and his gay men. We were part of a community which itself is young a community formed from the new sexual awakening in America. I came out to my parents when I was 13. They were the first people I told. And it gives you an idea of how close we were. I mean this is a very tightly knit dysfunctional group that was you know not. And I have very strong positive feelings toward my parents along with strong negative feelings but that

they were the first people I told and they wanted to be helpful which meant that they wanted to seek the appropriate medical council and so we went to my family physician and he recommended a child psychologist. And I came out in that context to my family. I stopped going to the psychologist after a couple of years. I felt that was a gross waste of money and time and you know now I grew up in upstate New York. We lived down an old what used to be a chicken farm. But it was an operational for years. My father was a truck driver. I have two older brothers and two younger sisters and I love the family joke is that I'm in the transition game in flocked to the big cities to be part of this new community. You know my dream was to

acquire enough of real estate and rental income so that I could quit my job and become a real estate developer and I wanted to you know own more real estate in Manhattan than Donald Trump. And my you can be roughly wishing. Yeah. And now I think back about it in the laugh it's so contrary to how I feel now. Not big steps or gradual steps. I mean I went about all of this very very slowly. What was so liberating was the presence of this entire gay community and gay culture and bars and bookstores and you know the street that you could go out and sort of walk and look at people look openly at people that you found attractive. I didn't mean that you had to do something with them every time you looked but it was just a joy to be able to ask so many of our

heterosexual brothers can look at someone and just noticed and admired and to be able to do that. They were exuberant times. We were celebrating our newfound freedom. There was a lot of sex back then and a great sense of kinship. And this process of coming out of finding other gay people is still happening and going in the Castro and I'd feel like this bond between all these people you know they're walking around going oh you know going on with their lives I'm gay nothing no big deal you know. It's a part of my life you know so what. And I'm here going wow. You know a gay black gay literature you know and reading it. And I just felt so free you know. I remember the same exhilaration 25 years ago. But for Johnny there was a big difference when he at 17 discovered the gay community. The virus was already there. I didn't know anyone who was HIV positive that I knew.

You know it's scary and right when I finished this one gay book and it scared me shitless. And then that's when I realized oh god I have to go get tested. You know there's a there's a chance that I could. But then again I still had them in the back of my mind. I only had unsafe sex those few times. There is a slim chance. No I'm glad I'm not sick I don't have any marks on my body I haven't been very ill. There's no way I'm pretty sure I'm negative. What an irony that the liberation movement which freed so many also created such opportunities for transmission of a virus. I don't even know what year this was that I actually but I think my very first experience was I was coming out of the Castro Theater and my friend said that guy with a brown jacket has AIDS. I remember

this is total fear coming over me. And just a lot of fear and they introduced us a group of people to one another and the guy with it made his point to shake hands with everybody there. It was my first time meeting somebody with AIDS atmosphere and I didn't want to touch them. I didn't want him to shake my hand. And so I put my hand upon you and I waited till we got to a restaurant so I could go into the washroom. I felt so sad so guilty that someone who was in a place of needing so much compassion and so much of his

family. Well I want to run away. I really want to touch him. I remember thinking gosh this guy is so beautiful and so powerful the way he put his hand out to everybody I thought I wonder if he knows what I'm thinking or feeling. So I'm thinking I wonder if he knows how afraid I am. As time progressed you know we found out more and more about how AIDS was transmitted and I had had unsafe sex in the early 80s up until about 83 in New York including passive anal sex without condoms and assumed that I was probably exposed.

I was in Germany a year ago about this time actually just right after Christmas and suddenly became very ill. I couldn't eat couldn't sleep. Sweating chills vomiting. You know bathroom everything just sort of violent. I was visiting my family at that time and went to the hospital and they diagnosed kidney failure both kidneys had failed. I still don't know why. I asked immediately is this HIV related. When I was in the hospital still in my sort of shock dazed state because I was on dialysis and all kinds of drugs. And they say we don't think so but we've tested you and you're positive about a year ago I was in the bathroom and I was brushing my teeth and I noticed something on my tongue was very very little. It was on the side of my tongue but I hate this. I took one look at it

and I couldn't stand it. And I got really upset and I went to a very good friend of mine who with whom I had worked you know closely and affectionately for years. And I said Listen. Do me a favor come in the other room. I have something I want you to look at and I showed him the side of my tongue and the expression on his face. I mean he I mean he had a bad expression on my face when I asked him if he wanted to look at my tongue. But when he saw what was on my tongue he had a very very disturbed expression on his face. Oh fuck expression and he didn't say to me this is what it is. He said I recommend that you see someone immediately. Now which is the correct professional thing to say. And and he gave me a hug and I gave him a hug. And and he had communicated everything he needed to communicate to me. He took my number opened the book and looked up my number in an under my and I saw him flipping through pages and I saw numbers and then the word negative one any numbers negative numbers all these negatives. Flipping

through all these negatives and then he comes to my number and there's it's positive and I'm like he looked at me and he said you know in a very soft voice. Because I knew it was it was rough for him. I don't know how these counselors do it. You are positive. And then I felt this like it's it was like the feeling I'm getting an F on the report card. You know like it did something bad and you're really going to pay for it. You know like Rush and being scared and then I didn't know a whole lot about it. So I thought I was going to die in a month. I cried because I didn't I wasn't afraid of death. No. The fact I was thinking the thought of dying didn't me. That's not what made me cry. And I wasn't crying because I was scared. I was crying because I was predicting the pain. My friends and family would have when they find out and you know and the pain I'm going

the fact is going to cost them. And that made me cry. That made me feel really bad. Did your mother or your brother. Ever wonder why. You were acting strange. I kept it pretty hidden. I. You know they didn't even notice any change in my mood or anything. Neither did my friends. So you didn't tell anybody that you knew. No. And once the first time. I gather you still haven't told your mother. No. No. I grew up so Catholic. I mean I was doing it so right. That I had. I have never been to a gay porn movie I'd never seen a gay porno movie even on a video. I never got to a porno

house. I've never gone to a bathhouse. I wasn't sleeping with a Brazilian guys. I mean so I shouldn't be touched by AIDS. You know what I mean. Like this is the the level of thought that was going on in my mind I think that goes on for a lot of people around when they're diagnosed. It's because of that evil stuff I did in the bathhouses Because this and this and this and so will I. Well I love telling people when I hear all that load of good stuff I said look if. I feel like I'm like Andy of Mayberry and I am diagnosed HIV positive I mean you cut yourself some slack. I was about as angelic and white bread as you can get. So I thought I mean I was doing it right. You know my idea of love was two people in a room with when this clause in there two people are allowed that and they're going to be together forever and ever. I'm HIV positive. What happened. These stories all had a familiar ring because they are my story. We all share the two biggest

events of our lives coming out and testing positive. It's estimated that 50 percent of the gay men in San Francisco are positive. The epidemic is also rooted within another population which involved in the mid 60s drug use skyrocketed during the Vietnam War. The greatest effect was in the inner city. I was born and raised in Brooklyn Williamsburg. I was born in the Greenpoint hospital in 1952. I come from a family of. Six women including myself. No brothers. I went to school in Williamsburg. Straight to high school at 14 Alex got pregnant and moved in with her boyfriend. He went to work. And I went and I hung out around the high school that I had attended and that's how my day would go and I would run home at 3 o'clock in the afternoon to be this

grown up you know cook dinner and and act like I was being a housewife all day and. I was like really confusing and it was like really. I was doing something I really didn't want to do and didn't know had till within the year. Alice began using heroin. I got to have it and I became my best customer. And then I became my only customer. And then the relationship came to an end and then I was able to work because I really didn't I didn't have it like that to where I would get up in the morning and then it was about hitting the cooker you know and chasing that drug. I was an I.V. drug user at the time and it was discussed among people and shooting galleries. You know everybody would discuss AIDS and how you got it although the

information was sketchy. We knew about it but it never occurred held any of that behavior at all. How to Talk About It was just you know have you seen so-and-so they don't look good. You know they look really sick. Maybe he has AIDS. You know they're saying you can get it from needles. We should use bleach hahaha. You know nobody ever did and it was generally you know you'd see somebody and they looked really bad or you'd hear about somebody dying you know and then the rumors would start whether or not it was AIDS. But it was a pretty generalized subject. You know it wasn't specifically this is how you get it. It was mostly talked about in terms of how you could get past it. I ve rather than sexually it's not it was a stereotype as to who has. It. Has it has Taqi you know who was it you know who have

acquired it. You know I mean I'm lying. I think I. Represent a fairly average group. You know. I have a husband kids. You know. With. That were pretty average go to church every Sunday and through the week. We were. We call ourselves. But you know we had a bit of a history that we thought was behind us. That's a lot of people probably might think. And we have all been blacked it out of our minds because you know our lives have changed in the last six seven years. So what do you do. You you block it out. Who's. Who's to say that is going to come back and haunt you

like that. That's what I call it. I want to get my results. And he told me you know are you ready for this. I said everybody is I'm ever going to get. And I thought it was about the coolest thing. And he told me the results came back positive. And. He told me why I suggest that you get involved this type of group and he started telling me a bunch of stuff I don't really know what the hell he was telling me. I know he was telling me a lot of things that were good for me. But I was listening to any of it. You know my focus was in that I was positive and I guess that I was going to die I think that that was my biggest concern. But I could feel it you know. And on my way back to the facility that I was in I was riding in the van and we would take in the blood back to Bellevue and then the van was going to drop me off.

At the facility. And I was thinking how I was not going to tell anybody that I had a positive result. Nobody needed to know. You know if I told anybody I was going to have to sit in groups and talk about it. I didn't worry about it. I called up everybody I had been sexually involved with in the last couple of years and I told them you know that I was positive please go get tested. I got really good reactions from everyone except my ex-husband who refused to believe it said it was because I hung out with gay people. I mean he believed that you know I had this there probably definitely had given it to him that I would probably be dead in a year. You know that was his feeling and that's how he reacted to it which was like pulling back. Refused to have any kind of sexual relations with me. So I said Oh no no nothing.

And. You know basically talking about how he'd make it last year really nice and I kind of bought into it for a while until I realized that if I have a year I'm not going to live it like this. A year later Mary met her current husband Billy. This epidemic has brought together eclectic groups of people whose names seem to be pulled out of some kind of celestial. If you've got a transfusion sometime in the late 70s early 80s. There was no way of knowing that your name had been placed and that. He'd. Gotten a letter from. The hospital where he'd had surgery three and a half years almost three years later informing him that he possibly. Had Got had gotten. Contaminated blood. Would he like if he would like he could come to the hospital and for $16. They would run the tests to

verify. How nice of them. You're my doctor finally. And. He told me he said don't worry about it. He said I've done these tests. To go back. And get mine back. That was. Because Margie may have been sexually infected by Del Mar. She decided to get tested. I don't know where that gavel down younger wise. But somehow I got in the house first and just so happened that three of my kids were in here. And I came in the house. Saying you're. Never going to leave. But I'm dying. That's. How I informed them. Why do you think you.

Know what my reaction might be to keep it quiet and going to the cells rather than work out to their children or something. Why do you think that was. I think probably because I'm an angry person. One was also infected by a heterosexual partner. When I met her she had stopped she had about four years in use and you know she was in good health except for a minor things. One's wife Griselda had an early history of drug use. Neither had any idea that she was left infected. While Juan was serving in the Army he was notified that she'd suddenly died back in Puerto Rico. And went downstairs to the. The guy didn't want to let me see my uncle my uncles my mother. What I did was I just pushed it on. And I went up

to the refrigerator door and they had a glass of. And it was her the. Member hair you know. The blanket you know. She was gay. And I turned around and the guy. Says to me nothing. And I said Where's a book Where's the book. You know and he says you're looking for the and also also stuff and I said Yeah. So when he saw me her name. Right next the way I said cause of death. And I had died. Like what a highlighter. You know. And. That's why one returned to the base in Germany where he tested

positive. He comes home as a quote healthy baby. He begins to get sick. You know he came home in March 2nd August. Doris had no idea she was positive when she gave birth to his son Jared the baby was constantly sick. But no one could figure out why he had tested negative for HIV once. But in desperation the doctors tested him again. He had been in Doctor so much and been so sick that I never knew that appointment would come we just go in and we'd go there and the nurse put us in a room and after being a few minutes about what he was doing he comes see here because he knew he'd probably be real sick to do it. They didn't come in for like 10 or 15 minutes. And I'm like no I was you know he would say so. So. How does he get through quiet. He's already quiet but he gets

real quiet and he gives up. And he thinks that there's no 14 days been up. So we. We going back. He's just busy. And we get a knock at the door and he had a social worker with him. And when I saw the social. Media I know. You know. That was really bad. And he said he knew he didn't. Anyway. So tell me what he said. He said You know I got this test results back.

And my husband looked into. It. I think his face was trying like him. And I just. Fell on his head. When you asked me all the time and look at me now and I'm sitting here saying I don't have any time. I really fell apart about it. I remember that. And I you know I believe in looking at me right this second but it really well when I think about that particular moment that's the only time I'm really hurt. So hold on. We didn't tell our daughter and we decided we only made this pack. What new body don't know how people hate us.

Months later tests would confirm that Dorice was positive and her husband negative. We made a real PAC about that. I know I have HIV but I don't realize it. Experts agree that it's important to do something to slow down the virus just as possible. The only concession I've made to the disease is that I'm taking AZT and doing Chinese herbs. I'm having trouble accepting that HIV is now a part of who I am. Growing up misfortune was always over there. Those poor starving people in India or the neighbor's daughter born with three fingers missing and that crazy lady who lives across the street. But now it's not over there. It's in here. So everything has changed. Yet most of the time I catch myself thinking Oh those poor people who are going to get AIDS.

You. Like applesauce is the. Easy to digest. OK. To kind would just stay in bed today. Why. You say that if you can you wouldn't stay in bed because she would beat the hell out of you. She will knock you on the head. What do you think you want to try to get out of bed a little bit. Right. All. Right. I'm going to try to keep that money for later.

It was a very difficult decision to participate in this film. The disclosure that one is HIV positive is is. What I would consider a quintessential bad news. It's just nothing you damn well want to hear about somebody that you care about. I remember just recently I was talking with a woman at work and I was saying asking her about photographing filming at work and I said to her you know I'm having a real problem. I'm trying to figure out how to politically negotiate how to get the cameras to come to work so that they can film me because they're doing a documentary about HIV positives and on HIV positive. It was so false and so unfair. I felt so after I said that and I saw the reaction of my co-worker whom I love. She

cried her eyes filled with tears and I realized that it's such bad news. You have to say sit down. You know I've got something to tell you that is a big deal. I mean it's not how I want to you know choose to live my life. You know there's so many good things happening. I don't want to give people bad news something that's not my personality. So is this a solution to get it all over with at once and tell her in one fell swoop. I'm hoping nobody and I mean that's my hope. My hope is that you know the night that this is on is blacked out in New York City. You know what. Now the Super Bowl was you know something really worthwhile is on the TV. Cademy of what a wife and a lot of people live there. You know if it's on the opposite the academy with time is. This is going to be a star in the film. So. What is the star. Are. They going to make a remake of Gone with the when they want to play the Clark Gable role. And me I guess I'll have to be. With her. You didn't

finish your applesauce after all that trouble. It's taken me four hours to make it. I'm now I'm like it's not a prosthesis it's not a dance and it's not on the list. You'll remove remove. I'll tape it. OK. Hey. Hey hey. I don't have one for that. All clothing remove. I can write nipple with bilateral nipple rings. Bilateral rings. Yeah. It's a cloth tape. Tape that. I made a very conscious decision. To. Aid Wisconsin to kill me. I decided I was going to cry myself to death.

You really do. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be damned if I was going to succumb to this damn disease. I would. Go out laughing and enjoying myself and. I would. Drink. And drink and drink and drink was home. For a while. And then it became not fun. Just not fun at all. And. Those downers purchase in that. He's done pretty much the same thing. Pretty much same thing. There. Before he decided he wanted to become a bartender so he could drink all the mistakes that he can play in. The. Rain. I mean it's funny now but. I. It was different then why were you on the radio when she found out she was able to the you and to read everything concerning she wanted to know.

And it's been a great help to me and. My daughter. That she wanted to read every day. I didn't want to hear a word but I didn't want to hear it on TV and want to see it on TV and use it in a. Green shirt and TV. Come on. It's pretty rough especially if you don't have people to talk to. Because. You find out this information you're crushed you crumble you know. And then. You talk to people kind of put yourself back together. Then once you're. Kind of sort of back together that's when you get courage. And what would you call your first. Act of. Courage. Going to the group. What was it like. Well I was courageous. Because I was actually doing something about. About this. I could've just sat at home not tell anybody

forever. Not tell anybody forever. I think some of the well most of the hard moments that I've had are having to explain to my daughter what I have. How did you do that. I sat her down and we had listened to I had taped a number of AIDS specials that were done for children on television and we watched them. And afterwards I said Do you understand you know that I'm HIV positive which this is what it means. And also you know we have a lot of friends who are also infected so there's a lot of AIDS talk around the house you know and I said and yes you know and she asked me Does this person have it does this person have it and I'd say yes you know does my dad have it. And I said no he doesn't have it. And that was really hard because for her it meant that she had to confront the fact that maybe I won't be here forever.

And I had to confront the fact that maybe you know I won't get to see her do things that normally maybe I would I sort of just accepted it as if oh well this is another part of my life initially and I would say for the first four or five months I didn't think of it negatively or positively it was just another condition of what my life was now about. And then I think as my body began to change in small ways as I developed rashes here and there that would come and inexplicably go away as my eyes would sometimes get very red for no reason or you know my skin would seem sort of strange to me compared to how it had been. I realized that there was a metamorphosis going on here and obviously going on internally and now beginning to manifest itself externally and that became harder. I mean that became harder to deal with. I was mad mad about things like why why did I have so many friends. Why do I have to be in so many things

or. One of these people I'm doing me now. I was close to so many people. And all I could think of was losing those people. And the one thing that scared me most. Was about my church. Was the day that our church came and picked me and my son and my daughter. For a barbecue. So we go over their house. And what this really hurts because when I think back on the world with they were all sitting around the table. And the kids are fighting about. They want some more Kool-Aid. OK. And. They don't know whose cup is whose and if and why not ask Mark. That's my cup. So my hostess the one that's been in is in order says we just not

fighting over that cup. It don't matter who drinks out the campaign to the you got. No way. And boy. I like. And poor Kelly. My daughter she said she froze. And she was just completely Argosy just completely. In awe. And I can see where you could see something was wrong. And so the distractions distract them from noticing her reaction. For called the and one of the kids that really navigate. And our kids a lot of the gay. But. What went right through me like 9. It was hard for me to keep it hidden. You know. I don't I was going through a lot of turmoil with everybody.

You know one had a perfect army record until he tested positive. I was distraught by the news and the need to keep it secret. He got into a terrible fight outside the canteen and was sentenced to the brig like that. As soon as I got there the next day man people would accept me you know I remember this guy asked me Are you gay. No. And. I'm like why. You know they don't want to say nothing. There was guys screaming from the cells under me you know. And they got somebody upstairs with AIDS and they got faggot's in here. This is not. What. You said. Nothing. Was the only reason that you kept it secret is secret because you were afraid of. The. Violence or were you afraid that what people would think.

Parvis what what we think. Yes. That worried me a lot. What. Do. They think I was a whore. You know. That I would see them out. You know. Things like that. And I certainly didn't want reflecting back on my girls. Who are still living here at home. I care. Life is tough enough without you know. Having other people to judge them. Because of their mother's. Life. Probably would be considered from risky behavior. And I wasn't like that. Did you ever blame yourself for being positive. Possibly for a while I suppose. I eventually I guess. Yeah. I think. If. We're all honest I think. Most of us are. Living with this disease. I think we we all probably some somewhere try to examine Well gee did I

really deserve this. I think it's probably human nature. I have a lot of friends who share with me what a positive and beautiful and grateful experience it is for them. They're all work with AIDS and they're doing a lot of great work. And as a part of me that doesn't feel sometimes that grateful feel so I feel like I was doing a good job before and that's definitely a part that feels like this anger at God is just part of it comes off my gift of my Catholic upbringing where I also I think for myself as that something I do want to get to know you know what's in my what was I doing wrong.

Where I still can feel sometimes like a punishment. I can still feel sometimes like a judgment. One of the fears that I have now. Is that. In one of the things I try to do and I try to keep as many people as possible now. From. Being bothered with. People always trying to hold them. When I have made church. Or you know if he's a little sick I'll leave him home with a life that means I have to take him with me. They want to pick him up and hug and kiss. And I try to hold back from that. Because. I'm afraid that. One son will find out they're going to say. Well she should have told me so I can make a choice whether I wanted to hug her because. She should have.

Something might be scared because is there. An education. About It. And they've got to be real mad at me about that. We're going to be upset about it and tell them. Because maybe they had the right to know because we are all so close. You know we hug every Sunday week. And someone but it's the religion of fear with them. Is it legitimate since they can't get AIDS that way. You got me right. They don't know that. They don't know that. One thing is clear. I want the time I've left here to be my time. But how do you live in a room with a monster. How do you just go about your life. I try denying his presence but I kept bumping into the beast. And now that I fully admit he's

here I worry I'll become obsessed. Jumping at his every twitch and move. Is there a balance between denial and obsession. The only answer is to co-exist with this monster. Learn how to eat at the same bowl. You could even say if you wanna sit on the side. You talk about how you. Can. To the part about when I was feeding you. And thought you know a life history. I'm. On my way to work. I would live up. To the place she was staying at. What is a girl. Yeah and she would look out the window and I look at her and a way. And stuff like that. You for your flirting. Good golly they were the ones.

I did. After I. Got out of the group home. I didn't have any sustained by was kicking me out know. Song. All the time and I think that I was. Going with a friend. Who's going to more than I had to call. So he decided to his mom's house. My mom. Was pretty understanding you know. She had a small apartment herself. You know she wanted to have. A. Home. This. Was. The first place to go. Yes. And I. We met initially and it and it was kind of I guess love at first sight. That kind of the premier dance palace of

gain New York the St.. There was this gorgeous blonde standing there with this huge smile and. And you know it was one of these like whoa where did you come from. And and he noticed me and kind of smiled at me. And you know during that whole show I kept like every now and then looking back and and catching his eye and and you know he would smile a wink and an error. Scott didn't meet that night. But by coincidence several months later a mutual friend introduced and I came back. I called him up and asked him to go out to dinner alone and you know it was the first time we had been together in and you know dating kind of situation. And we spent the night together.

And from then on you know we were in love. And. The irony of it all was that six weeks later Scott was diagnosed with AIDS and he said look there's something I want to tell you I got the results back from the doctor today. Even though I'd really gotten him back on Friday and you know told me you know it was death and that he had AIDS and and you know we sat in the park and I cried my eyes out and. He tried to reassure me which was Scott I had waited all those years we have been here for almost.

10 nine years before we. Finally gave him this. And he was so happy that. And. Then. When he be sick. And I felt like that because I was the one. That it was my fault that he somehow blamed me for it. But wasn't saying so. And that's why we started stepping out what. I started to believe that. He was through me. I think it would be impossible for someone with HIV who learns that fact who is in a relationship it would be impossible for that fact that knowledge not to affect the relationship. I think in terms of my relationship which is now 10 years old with my lover. It's in many ways brought us closer at the

same time. It's created a certain wedge within the relationship. Because he is negative I'm positive we're a mixed couple in several ways and that he's also white and I'm black of course. So there's that additional wedge there where. He faces the prospect of losing a lover yet again actually because two previous lovers ex-lovers have died of AIDS. I face sort of the burden of thinking I don't want to do anything that would endanger his health. So in some ways it drives a wedge in the relationship that I think is a constant point of potential friction at least a constant point of trying to resolve and to sort of break through at the same time though because I think a sense of a sense of the the

finality of life which is always there except it's usually not something we think about but because it's now very much more you know in a much clearer or sharper fashion we can't ignore this. It makes us much more appreciative of each other. Making love. And right afterwards. Evidence. Of. Guilt you know. Wanting it to be over. You are themselves. You. Know. And I you know say back then I was I was drinking heavily. I wasn't going to any support groups at all. Now you know. Although I know it was dangerous I didn't want to accept that. But again the point where it was like. She was telling me. You know. Go ahead.

I know you're going to believe this and that. But I was not overweight. I was awake. I was hearing everything that was going on. Around Me. And. I saw pictures in my head that I was seeing pages and I saw him telling me sitting in accounts. Telling me. You know I'm HIV positive. He told me in my dreams like. But I was awake. You know. So. He came over that night and I said Hello this is what you know this is will soon die and I had a dream that you told me you were HIV positive. You know. And. He looked at me. He called me a witch. And I laugh as ionize as not so I was on a list of things. I made it up. And. He got drunk and then I got really really drunk and he pulled me into my room and said listen I'm going inside. And he started telling me about his past. You know. And then

all of a sudden saw me. Did you ever go see safe sex. We had to talk about it. I think that. Is. Because a lot of times my problems and everything I guess I was really telling myself I don't care if I die. You know. So I was wondering about. That and for that somebody wanting me nobody can see me. You know. I was. Nice didn't mean anything to me. I don't care if I die I don't care if anything happens to me. You need to grab a condom. And I take it and throw it away. Lose her. I take. This. One because I wanted to so I wasn't afraid. Went through. My mind. My head was. Going around in circles. And. Then another bruises

because I can't find anything happens to me. We've been told. We should. Take some precautions till. He found out what the results of his test were. He was too embarrassed to go. But. And. Somewhere along about that time my my feelings of self-worth were like about yea. And. I permitted. US to have sex with. Without. Condoms. In other words I wasn't willing to be responsible enough to say. Not last. But neither was I willing to go on by that condoms. I was just embarrassed as he was. In other words. I am just not willing to take responsibility. And that he went out hunting with his friend McKinley

bill and he cut himself. And he took every precaution to take care of his friend. So that. His. Friend. Didn't come in contact with his blood. And told his friend why. Didn't he come back. Home. And he related this to me. And I wish. I was just. Round his neck. Just. Get throttling him. I really did. And. We got into a terrible terrible fight. I called him every dirty name I think I'd ever heard in the book. In every language I could think of. How to. Care about your friend. So much that you protect him but you won't protect me by using a condom. One day. It's that you want out.

Of my sons and then you're gone is gone anyway. He was worn out. When he went and checked himself into a drug problem. At the beginning when. He decided he said to me and they would talk to me. He said that. He didn't know what to do. When he realized that he was using his wife. And he. Said. He didn't think he could say he didn't think he had. So he left the weight of it all. But I guess I should be thankful that he's worried that he's got me that he's come through with an

that is rolled up. But you know I don't want to I don't have. Time to deal with him. In his recovery. Did you think me as a teenage daughter that. Being a teenager. Who helps me. You had only known each other for six weeks right when he was diagnosed. Did it ever occur to you to say look I don't need this. He's going to be dying and he's a new lover. I mean gracefully bow out he had a lover. Yeah I mean I actually went through a period like that and that was exactly what I was thinking. And I had a conversation to that very point with one of my best friends. He said you know would you be with him if he wasn't sick.

And I said of course and. And he said you know well why deny it. You know the two of you the chance to love each other and to be really happy just because when you're sick. And you know doesn't that you know doesn't it seem. To make the most sense that if Scott is sick that the thing he should have most is love. And I said yeah you're right and you and I as I said you know I think having even two years having Scott as a lover for even only two years would probably be you know more important than loving just about anybody else for 20. And.

Or was it. It was just about two years. And oddly enough the next day Scott called me up and said you know look I got to come talk to you. You know I mean I need you to to support me. Can you be there. And I. And I said you know I love you more than anything and I want to be there for you. And I ask him to move in with me. And so he decided to go back and break up with Paul and and actually flew back to California with Paul to kind of help him adjust to the breakup. And when he got back started moving in. And that

is really what changed my life. Loving Scott and having Scott as a lover and losing him to a completely changed my life. I don't understand these things called feelings and how sometimes feeling so much pain can also feel like so much amazing happiness. And I think it's that there's a place that in that pain where the heart gets the break and it breaks open and actually allow some kind of freedom. And I remember the few days that my friend Will was in the hospital and this is someone who had been in remission for years from chaos and. And. All of a sudden he got like these flu symptoms. And it

didn't turn around. And so then he was in the hospital and by the time I got to see him. He was. He was still coherent but he wasn't. He was out there his brain and his conses was doing some different stuff and. It wasn't exactly the will. I don't. Know. But those two days of being with him when he was dying. They were like two of the happiest days I remember probably in the last five years. And I don't I can't understand why but that I just felt so much love. I just I think that people. Know about several lovers first.

Of all my friends who know people who have like 20 some odd people who got. It. Nobody knows. Nobody knows what those people have gone through. Nobody knows the amazing story. And the generosity of those people. It's these awful people. This world is so. Amazing. Angels are they are amazing love that they've been for their friends. Is HIV fatal.

This is a question doctors and scientists are obsessed with and yet we're told if you're positive this is a question you're not supposed to think about. Not good for your health. Researchers say that he's been infected a long time your chances are not very good. The average time for serious symptoms to appear is 11 years. So you are infected more recently your chances of being here when they find a cure are much better. I have friends that say HIV has become a manageable illness like diabetics most of us will survive and these friends object when I refer to myself as having a fatal disease. But I feel there's more glory in surviving a fatal disease than dying it's a manageable one. I started falling apart before moving how. Feeling sorry for myself. I cried and I cried but I got to the point where I was tripping about the worst thing. Pork Chop chicken about pork chops. Yeah. Problem.

What do you. I sent them to the store to get Senate cuts. And he come back with. And I cried all night. Now you know the way I mean they like the way they grind on I mean you know you go from you now. So. I mean that was always you know crime it just felt so sorry was so wouldn't do nothing. How did you get out of it. When he left I had no choice. When he wanted to prove it I mean I was the only thing that my kids had and I had to keep my household to give up what an income was cut and that I had my house and I had my kids and I wasn't working. I just had my disability and I had to keep it gone. And my biggest fear. One thing I always remember that I heard on a documentary is that you are always one paycheck away from homelessness and in the world down time to get busy Take care.

I have to. I haven't told my friends yet. I'm going to tell them by the time this gets out. It's just a matter of the right time in the right place. My friend Sandy she asks me in a coffee shop in a coffee shop they sell coffee beans that we were waiting in line at the cash register. You're negative right. It's not the right time or place and I just say oh yeah don't worry about it. What am I supposed to say Cindy. I'm positive in the middle. We're standing in line of this place. I mean. You know I was just thinking Cindy you really get a clue. She was I guess it just proved to me how sure she was I was negative you know. But. I imagine telling him in a park somewhere peaceful sitting just

alone. The fact that you were positive actually contributed to your cleaning up. Yes they did talk about that. Do you think that. If you were to have been escaping and correct me if you don't like my language but you've been escaping reality or whatever medicating yourself all these years when you get that big nose that big nose you've got a fatal disease or what people call a fatal disease then that's the real time to start medicating yourself. It seems to me no it's not. It's a time when McLaughlin said you know what. I don't know how much time I have to live. And I know that I don't want to die and if I want to experience some of those good things that people experience I need to stay clean. And yes I started clinging on to anything that I possibly could that could help me change. Matter of fact Denise Whipple told me about this that was very positive just looking. For somebody that that's Hispanic and of color and gay and HIV positive.

And it was like she was outside the shop is where you. Getting a positive step. You get people on the hotline that don't know anything about this. Pay. And feel exactly the way that I felt when I first got my diagnosis went public. Because I was really scared. I was at a point where I was just following whatever suggestions anybody gave to me and I started connecting with women. That were positive like myself. Some of them did have AIDS some of them were in ARC stages but they all look healthy you know. They all had this glow about them. You know they were all full of full of life. You know I'm looking forward to other things in their lives you know going on vacations and working. You know and taking care of their families and starting relationships and others ending relationships. And it was like when life goes on.

Maybe a good place to begin would be just a kind of a. History. From when we last. Did an interview. I just listen to the interview you never said I'm going to beat this like some people do. But you were certainly optimistic. Are you still optimistic. I'm relatively optimistic about the whole thing. But for me there's there's been a touch of realism in that. My diagnosis has changed from. Positive to full blown AIDS. Isn't it hard not to get angry. Why you. Why this disease. Well I mean I know why this disease. You know I got this disease because I put a rag in my arm. You know that was dirty. So I mean. Well that's what I did. That's how I got it. You know. And why. You know I don't know why I think there's an answer to every question

in this universe. You know and I think you can just make it so I don't believe it's a CIA plot. You know I just can't believe that you know and if it is you know then we all need to be united and go do something as I said go bite them or something. But I don't believe there's like an answer to every question in the universe you know. And so I ask the ones that I need to know so I can live at peace with myself after becoming pregnant. Beverly got tested miraculously both she and the baby Krystal are negative. When I went the support group down here. They. Taught me. Ways to break the news to people you know. They taught me that I had enough to do it by myself. You know that there's other people that feel just like I do. And. They taught me the importance of sex safe sex. You know that.

It doesn't mean that you're not making love to that person it means that you love that person. Some people think that because you're you're wearing a rubber and then you're doing all these little things. That it kills. It it kills the moment. You know. I think that all depends on how you look at the person. You know. I. Don't know. They they they sort of that through to me you know where I really. Was living. In front of the masks that I had in front of me for so many years. They got to the other side of me that will say I need to be loved. And. I'm afraid of dying. You know. That was one thing I didn't want to face up to. They taught me it's OK to be afraid. You got to let that out once in a while. But it's not OK just to sit down and wait for it. And.

You've got to you've got to still look for your future goals. And be YOU. You're. Forgetting. Things. When I. Pressed. On I get depressed. And he makes me mad. And get mad. I think like the pain. You. Don't talk in a moment of silence. On the line. I'm going to the bench strain on my head. I. Talk to myself. And when. He's the spokesperson with my

television. When I come out and say. What it's like. You know. When we sit down far away from each other and. We start talking a little. I have to say I think it has really. Helped. Our relationship because you live. You're not so selfish don't you. I mean I'm not saying I was all for me or she was all for her. It's just that. You learn to work. More together. And live more together. Live. To be able to. Help. Other. I said I will sit and talk about things. And she gets irritated at me like you know. When I get the money to this probably never going to get this. You know and it this fence and build the bigger porch you know. But I'm just

talking for my own. For my own good. Most of it. They 90 percent of it is bullshit. I just it's just something that. What I said is gone you know. And no I don't plan too far ahead. Oh I don't know we plan like first action but you know the good and you know things like this. But if you do happen that's all right. He had gotten a pass from his program that he used and he came to church last Sunday. And. Because he hadn't been to church in almost six months. And I didn't know he was coming and I think the choir opened a choir of them up there and I saw him. And I know he just stared at me for the longest. With that and I think went back to his place and he called me.

He said You know I looked too up in the choir of the day. And I noticed that. How strong you appeared. And he said I felt bad about having told you that because all this time saying we go you know that I'm not strong enough I have to deal with things better and he said you really are dealing with this. And I think that maybe and I been whining about the fact that I couldn't go back to work. Do I need to stay home with it. Not. He said I think that. You actually do know what you need to do what you don't have to do. And I think that your life is going to be a help to somebody. Even if I don't make it and do die. I don't fear dying. I know I know I've lived before and that I'll live again and that my life will have done some good. The meeting had as I said 11 members that were to act up numbers there. I was there

talking about Fauzi and. I was there talking about losing Scott has made me realize that I needed to do something about AIDS and realized that there was a real problem with homelessness amongst people with AIDS and knowing that you know I had a lot of skills and renovating buildings and stuff like that I decided that I wanted to develop AIDS housing AIDS and get some god damn attention paid to this issue. The level of attention that it requires I guess I use some. To some extent follow me. You know Scott's example too. And you know I'm not going to lay down and play your victim and die just because I have a virus that. Has killed the number of people and a lot of people think I'll die of. I like to prove people wrong. I have a really good life. You know I have a

really I have a wonderful husband I have a great kid. You know work is all difficult right now because of you know I've been sick so often. But I mean the important things that count you know which is to me family. You know I have more than than I could ever have wished for. So I consider myself fortunate a lot of people never have that you know their whole life. And. Another way it makes me like really mad. It's like I finally got what I wanted all my life. You know which is a really wonderful family you know and I'm going to be really pissed off if it's taken away. You know before I'm ready. You say. This. It's.

Find. Work this is. Why. It's. Won. So great. I personally don't think it's a magical illness. Do you feel that it is Peter. I'm not sure that it's not. I'm not sure that it's not. I think that we really have gotten into all new levels of management. I mean I'm witnessing people living longer and longer and longer and won't go even after the diagnosis not after the infection but after a full blown as they say AIDS they're living longer and successfully with richer lives so I do have a sense of longevity. Increasingly so I don't think that that's unrealistic. The thing that. Drives me crazy. Is people responding to the latest information

in. The various media. And they say what did you hear about that. Did you hear about that. It was on the television last night do you think that's going to be. I said I don't listen to anything on the television. I I you know you know I will I just can't get my hopes up over you know Chinese. Q compass I mean. People saying where do you get them. Are there any Chinese vegetable stores. I said. You know they would probably make me nauseous or give me gas. I'm not about to get my hopes up over Chinese cucumbers. You know. And. There's always going to be another Chinese cucumber. OK. And I mean so the thing is that I'm a clinician I work in a setting where we are conservative medical. Techniques are extending lives. We also through all of these clients clients realize that there are other means that people are using to make their lives healthier and more and richer. And so we have seen the Louise Hay types we've seen the crystals.

We've seen the oils and the healing groups and. And as long as the the treatments are not. Invasive or harmful to the individual and the individual finds comfort in them I think it's great you know go for them for you. Know crystals. Well actually crystals the roughtly. And you know I would love Crystal you f anybody that wants to give me a crystal lovely beautiful pink lovely blue beautiful crystal. It's not very nice you know. But I have my own coping mechanisms. Now I want my pussy cat I want my you know I like my videos. You know what I'm saying. I have my own relaxation methods and. And. And and motivational techniques and I'm not I'm not big for them. Even this thing of the spiritual path. Can be a time too.

It can be like this place of birth. I've got to be spiritual I've always got to be happy I've always got to be aware of what's really expand that I've got to be healing myself I can't be getting sick or I can't be blah blah and. My new goal. Is to be human. Is to really embrace myself as as really human being a human being. It's my right to have a shitty day. It's my right to have a call. I'm a human being. It's my right to be a bitch that's my right to be less than perfect. It's my right to be HIV positive. Even there I can be loved even there even in something on my mind or this world has is so ugly. So I can find a place. To be gentle and compassionate violence and love. When you say what in my past I really don't even think just my past as a child of my

past as an adult. But really for me what's really sort of helped me through life been figures through history. And one of the principal figures it sounds a little crazy but it's almost as if we have a dialogue at times and it's not really a dialogue. I just see this vision of the human being. Is Harriet Tubman. Whenever I feel low I think of this woman who was a slave walking through woods being chased by hound dogs you know pushing herself to find freedom and finding it and going back into slavery time after time to take others back to freedom with her. And I think of tremendous risks and a tremendous courage that was required to do that. And that's enough. I mean I could name other figures with that's enough for me. And that's my past that's the past that I draw upon that helps me through this and will help me

if when should I get sicker and will continue to push me on to keep saying to me one more step. We'll make it. Don't worry child one more step. It's strange. Everything is changing. Nothing has. I used to wonder Am I doing in my life what I should be doing. I still wonder but maybe a little more. I used to worry about what was going to happen to the world. I still worry. But maybe a little less. I used to get depressed about my messy house. Still is. Sometimes I wonder how I'd feel if they found a cure tomorrow. The irony is that I think I'd be depressed. I tried so hard to be realistic about things. To accept this change of fortune. That it's become a part of who I am.

And if that part were taken away I know there'd be something missing. I'd get over it though. I