On Assignment; 2020; La Hacienda De Los Luceros; AIDS and Social Security

Broadcast of on assignment is locally funded by KNME viewer contributions and by a grant from American home furnishings at American Square in Albuquerque and at American Plaza in Farmington, locally owned and operated since 1936 and the Mountain Bell Foundation. Tonight on assignment, it was built before the pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock, a landmark which is served as seat of government and family home. The Lucero House near Espanola is on the block. It's future in question. That house has been in danger for a long time. A lot of people have come in, have purchased it, have taken out from it, what things that they wanted to capture and left it. They

keep changing it and the more they change it, the more we lose history and we cannot afford that any longer. bureaucracies move slowly and the New Mexico Association of People with AIDS wants the Social Security System to do something about that. Benefits are there, but can they be gotten to people who need them quickly? I have participated and contributed to Social Security. For years, it's now time for me to take advantage of it. I'm sorry I'm not 65, but the probabilities are that I'm not going to live much longer than a 65-year-old will. These stories next, on assignment, with Hal Rhodes.

Good evening. Preserving our architectural past has been one of this nation's most difficult challenges, notably in our large urban areas. But the landmarks of rural and small-town America are no less threatened, even in relatively isolated places like Northern New Mexico. This is the Lucero House, just north of Espanola. The dominant architectural feature of a small community known as Los Luceros. For at least two and three quarter century, the Lucero House has commanded this landscape. But like other great American structures which have fallen to the bulldozer, no one can guarantee its future. There is nothing to preserve what's there now. If we feel and believe and know that some of the buildings there were built in 1601 and somebody was to come and buy it, private ownership, they could destroy it in one minute and there's nothing to stop them from it.

Anybody can come and take any part of it as they have in the past because it's changed ownership so much so they can come and take any part that they want to and leave whatever they want or take it off. A rear-arriba county covers that area of the county. So the county would have to put into motion immediately ordinances and laws that would protect that historical site. And even then, I don't know that the courts, if they would take it to court, the courts would throw it out. How can you tell us what to do on our private land? Espanola Mayor Richard Lucero, whose ancestors came with Oñate to Northern New Mexico in the late 16th century and who founded Los Luceros in 1601. The magnificent Lucero House itself has alternately been a family home, a Mexican garrison county courthouse for Rio

or Reba County and a home again. Recently, however, the Lucero House, which is on the National Register of Historic Properties, fell by default action to the first interstate bank of Santa Fe. The 150 acres of dwellings and apple orchards which surround it prey to the elements, vandals and inevitably developers. Again, the bank is not in the real estate business. And as such, when we do acquire property of this type, our primary objective is to resell the property. We would carry this type of property on our books as a non-earning asset. So there is a significant amount of dollars that is generating actually no return for the shareholders of the bank. In my opinion, the site is highly significant and it's also severely threatened. And it's important to save the site if we can.

I would say that we have had no indication as has been rumored that there were attempts by certain organizations or groups to purchase the property and one story that we had heard and widespread rumour a month or two ago was that they were going to bulldoze the main Haasienda and put a gravel pit in and little one acre trailer parks. And that again is something that of course would have to go through a planning commission process in Rio and River County. And again, there should be the appropriate checks or stops in the county planning process, something like that should never happen. To the best of my knowledge, the current county zoning ordinances wouldn't afford any protection to that site. Clearly, despite its historic designation, the Lucetto House is endangered and that prospect alarms TG Fudge, whose American Studies Foundation has undertaken a massive effort to save the structure and surrounding village. But it's like running against the

clock. Is that there are developers in the area and probably outside the state that are ready to purchase this property? Number two, you can see the immediate physical problem to the building here. And we need to stabilize this building right away. It's very much in need of extensive repair. It's going to cost quite a bit of money. And we're looking for people that are interested in working in this property with the program that we have designed to bring all this together, the finances, the expertise, the programs that you'll make this work, and bring it to the public attention that it is indeed an important historic contribution not only to the state, but the nation. This is the site of the earliest Spanish colonization in the southwest, and possibly the oldest structure architecturally of

the colonization period. How to save the Lucetto House and who should be responsible is itself a matter of debate, even among those who want it saved. I would say that the best hope for the property now would be for it to be managed by a private non-profit organization with some public assistance and oversight. The state of New Mexico, because of his historical value and his touristic economy, should preserve it, and should really bring it back to its origin as much as possible, reconstructed to what we know it looked like and it was originally, and the many governments that it served. If they don't very soon, they're going to start subdividing the land further and further

and after while we'll find nothing left, and another part of history lost again forever. So no, I don't think anybody should hold ownership to that title, to that property, except the state of New Mexico. It's true that public ownership is the only permanent repository, so to speak, but you have to bear in mind that supposing that that site can be acquired for $900,000, there's at least half a million dollars worth of work to be done, simply on the main house, and the legislature hasn't suggested that that money is going to be forthcoming. Under the foundation, it's written in the bylaws as a tricultural board of directors. It's set up that way to maintain this property, open it to the public, which it hasn't been for many, many years and many, many past owners.

As a national historic site, it's five plaque buildings, open to the public. We feel this is the best approach to the problem, being that the state does not have a lot of surplus capital right now. This would save the state any further burdens economically. The program will be self-sustaining what we have designed here, and isn't designed to bring in outside capital to make this happen. Is this, you say it's one of the oldest structures, if not the oldest structure in the southwest of the colonial period, but where exactly are we in terms of that old house? Is this a new part, old part, middle part? This is a product of many, many remodeling over the centuries. Parts of the walls are said to have been built during the 1600s with the Onyate's expedition.

Four or five of the people came up here to this site because there was a pueblo right nearby here, just east of here about a few hundred yards and set up a little working hosienda here, a rancho, at the time of the 1680s, of course, all of the Spanish people were pushed out, and it was probably at least the ceiling was burned out, maybe the walls torn down to some extent. So what we intend to do is to verify some of this historic period, the 1600 period, which all the records were burned up in Santa Fe and the archives, and do some research down in Durango, which was the administrative seat of the northern provinces during the Spanish period. What kind of population? Maximum was here in Los Luceros at one time.

It has varied throughout the different periods, the early Hispanic period colonization. We do know that 1730, a census was taken after the resettlement period with De Vargas on Capitan Sebastian Martín came right here this site, reopened the ditches, he says, in 1703, refurbished the hosienda here. It became a big major working hosienda, it was known as Plaza de Soledad, but in 1730, the first census that we have record states, 299 people, 44 families right here in this plaza. They tell me this place is haunted, do you have a reason to believe that? Yes, I do. I, as a matter of fact, I was here this fall, we moved out here with the permission of the bank and agreement with the bank to show the place to the grants, people, the local neighbors here, people in the state government, etc, to show them how important this is, a lot of people haven't seen it, and I was told about the ghosts in here, and at one point

at this fall, I was walking up the stairwell, and this wave of a hot air goes right by my right shoulder. And I just said, hello, Judge. Now, are you putting me on, is that, did that really happen to you? That actually happened to me, and also the local stories say, up in the Judge's Chambers, which I showed you earlier, the paint is walked off, and they say if you repaint that floor, that within three days it will be walked off again, because the judge is still pacing up there. Did this judge meet an untimely death or anything like that, or he just liked the place generally you think? The judge really loved the place, he married a Lucero daughter in 1850, moved here, he was, had tuberculosis, I understand, he was a Santa Fe trail trader, came here for his

health, met the Lucero daughter in Santa Fe, moved here, married her, and became the first American judge here for the territory, and this was the county seat of Rio de Janeiro County. Other than a home, a domicile as it were for judicial ghosts, why would anybody want to pour a quarter of a million dollars, 300,000, 400,000 dollars into this property, simply just to restore, I mean that's what's going to take, isn't it? At least. It's a national and international class site, and it deserves that kind of resource input. Northern New Mexico has not been a prime target, you know, economic developers have not just been beating the path up into Northern New Mexico, bulldozer in tow, ready to raise the land and do whatever it is developers do, it happens in our urban areas, and historic

sites there are an endangered species, but what makes you think really that some economic developers going to come in here and do something like that to this place, the bank says it's not interested in having that happen necessarily. Well, no one is hell, and we just know that there are people that would do that sort of thing, and it happens, as you know, throughout the United States, just recently an article about a very, very historic site in Illinois came across about developers purchasing a very historic French site, an Indian village, and are putting condos there, it's one of the more unique sites of that period in Illinois, so it happens all time, it's not just restricted to here, and this particular site is of such importance, especially to New Mexico, especially to Hispanics, especially to the Teihuah-Pueblo Indians.

Its historic depth is really hard to find in this area. There is a point of view at the bank that we have heard that you really need to worry about the destruction of this property because somehow county zoning ordinances or some kind of county ordinances protect it because it is on the National Register of Historic Properties. What are we to make of that? If it's purchased by a private corporation that intends to run it for private interest, there again, it would be locking the people away from their heritage. So you see this as a public enterprise. It should be a public enterprise, it deserves to be a public enterprise. We see that as the best- You have an hard time raising money. Oh, everyone is. I mean, what kind of a formidable challenge do you have on your hands here?

It's really tremendous, especially in the light of the recent stock crash, and in fact several doors were shut on us. There are shops that are closing their foundation wing of their corporations. Because of their economic trouble. They've lost considerable revenues. You actually almost had money of which you lost as a constant stock market in December, one of our larger, very discouraging. It's frustrating. There's a mix of myth and history about this place. I don't know if it's possible to answer it, you mentioned that, you know, there's some people believe this is the oldest of them all back to 1601. State records, I think, indicate that they can document, what is it, 1712? That's as far as they've been able to document. The interplay between myth and history here.

I mean, how much don't we really know about this? It would be helpful in order to validate the true historic nature of this place. Oh, definitely. That's one of the main projects and aims for American Studies Foundation is to his research records in Durango to see if we can dig some of the documents pertaining to that early period. And there has been historically here in the state a strong reluctance to admit that there's possibly older structures other than the Palace of the Gunners on the Plaza in Santa Faye. Yes, I understand that. That too. There's a lot invested in that myth, too. Yes. To understand, as it were, the present status of this property is owned by the bank. Bank got it on the default action of some sort. So they say that there's some kind of a gentleman's agreement between the American Studies Foundation, your organization and the bank, which offers some hope that, indeed, this whole enterprise

can be gotten off the ground. What's the nature of that gentleman's agreement? And is it enough to guarantee that this thing really does have a shot at getting off the ground? Yes, there is. We've been negotiating for quite some time with the bank and trying to come up with some realistic time frame for monetary action on the part of ASF to go ahead and complete the its option with the bank. At this point, it's still unclear because we still have, as of today, as we speak, one bill in the legislature from the Senate that would be an outright purchase. We don't know if that's still alive or not. There's another bill introduced by our local senator, or excuse me, Representative Nick Salazar to make available on long-term low-interest loan funds to projects such as this through

historic preservation in the Department of Cultural Affairs to rescue projects like this. But this would be monies that would be turned back to state or paid back to the state. There are so many fabulous historic sites throughout New Mexico, but including Northern New Mexico. It's often struck me and I'd like your feeling about this. That as a state, we have not always understood the importance of investing, in preserving those, in and of themselves for their own merit, but for their educational and historic benefits to the future. Do you think the Mexicans fully understand the richness of this treasure? Oh, yes they do, and there has been, just like a resource historically here, to work with the people on the projects within the state. And now it's even harder, the people of this valley know and revere this site.

The program we have designed will make a direct economic contribution to the area, and they know this, and they want this to happen. And I think if people from all over the United States would know that in 1598, the colonization of the United States of America took place in the Espanola Valley, and there's a home that's the oldest in the United States of America, built in 1601, at Los Luceros. And there they can come and identify us to that history. Then I think we'll have a tremendous tourist influx into this valley. New Mexico, throughout New Mexico, has so many cultural and historic treasures. I often wonder if we fully value those and are willing to put the money necessary to their preservation and conservation into those efforts, simply that they might be there for our children, our children's children, and years and years to come.

Do you think we've done as much here as we ought to be doing? No we have, and I know that this is very important to the people here in the valley, and they have responded tremendously to our efforts here. They realize that this is a real opportunity for them to develop some real sense of history for themselves and an identity not only here, but nationwide with the Hispanic colonization. It's very, very important. And as museums operate, one of the most validating statistics that we have is that for every dollar of the state invests $80 as a return to the state. This is pretty dramatic figure, and we are designing our programs to intersect with museums and all the activities here in northern New Mexico. I certainly hope it succeeds.

Listen, would you stick with me just a little bit? I have another segment coming up here on assignment. We have to attend to that, but later in the program I'd like to come back and chat just a little bit more. I'd like to. This story is about being disabled and trying to get Social Security benefits for which you have already paid. It can and it does happen to almost anyone who is disabled, be it the result of cancer or another disabling illness. This story just happens to focus on people who are unable to work because they have AIDS, or an AIDS-related illness. It is also the story of a large and admittedly cumbersome bureaucracy, the Social Security Administration.

Only everyone who works pays in to the Social Security system. Most of us think of it as a way of providing for ourselves in our old age. But Social Security is also designed to provide assistance when physical or mental impairment make it impossible for us to work. However, getting that assistance is not always easy. John Woods was diagnosed with what is called AIDS-related complex two years ago. An accountant by profession, Woods finds work difficult these days, his illness having progressed to the point where the good days are few, the bad days routine. Nevertheless, John Woods has been denied Social Security benefits. What do I have to do to convince these people that this disease is disabling and that it's something that I have invested in, that's why we have it. That's what Social Security is about. It's to cover you during times when you simply can't, when you've reached the point where

you can't do it anymore. How do you convince the people that that's what's going on? Their attitude is not that at all. Their attitude is that they're doing you a favor, that they don't want to put any energy into figuring out what your problem is. They much prefer to take the easy way out, blame it on someone else, not think about it, not work on it, simply abide by the rule that someone else made. Yeah, it's real angry, it makes me angry, it makes me very angry. It isn't easy getting what you have paid for. For the disabled, it is often like running a gauntlet. Take the case of someone who has been formally diagnosed with AIDS. Social benefits known as supplemental security income, SSI, could be available within a couple of months. Later, if all goes well and if the person lives, regular disability benefits may be forthcoming. But the process is complex and if you are ill, potentially taxing.

At the very least, a bureaucratic road map may be required. I think we need to look at what DDU is in relationship to Social Security. Social Security administers two disability programs. The Social Security Disability Program and the SSI Disability Program. Social Security is work related, SSI or supplemental security income is needs related. At the Social Security office, we make the decisions regarding the non-disability factors of entitlement. Do you meet all of the eligibility criteria? The Disability Determination Unit is a state agency under contract to the federal government to make the disability decision. They use federal guidelines as set forth in the law to determine whether or not a person meets Social Security's definition of disability. And that's just the easy part. There are many who suffer diseases associated with AIDS who have not formally been diagnosed with the illness.

It is known as AIDS-related complex or ARC, often as disabling as AIDS itself. But no guarantee that the Social Security benefits will be forthcoming. Rick Fairbanks, Administrator of the Disability Determination Unit in New Mexico. We have a real problem with the AIDS-related complex cases. Or I consider, I feel that we have a problem with it. The guidelines that have been established by Social Security are not clear-cut. And I think those guidelines need to be clarified or changed or whatever, because New Mexico tends to have a lower allowance rate for ARC cases than other states do. We have gotten some information from the David Rust, who is the Associate Commissioner for Disability. And they indicate that the allowance rate nationally for ARC cases is about 68 percent. In New Mexico, it's considerably lower than that.

There should be no difference. Social Security is a federal program. And in each state, the Social Security system is set up the same, whereby you have a disability determination unit to make the decisions. There should be no different state to state. And that, too, is a part of this story, not a little buckpassing within the system itself. It is frustrating for the disabled. While they're doing their bureaucratic stuff and filling out lines and checking boxes, what are you supposed to do? And they don't listen to you. They say, yes, I understand what you're saying. And I understand how difficult that is, but they don't do anything about it. Because an individual, Mr. Reyes, was very sensitive to my situation. But as an organization, there was absolutely nothing that he could do about it, except to tell me that it would take another 30 to 45 days to process my reconsideration to move into the next step of possibly being declined. And then I have to get a lawyer and then we have to go to court.

It's amazing. The initial claims process, the reconsideration process basically consists of a paper review. You're reviewing all of the medical evidence. When you go to the hearings level, you have an opportunity to present your case in person. If your case is denied, at the hearings level, you have 60 days to request an appeals counsel review to ask them to review the decision made by the administrative lodge judge. If that is denied, it is up to the individual whether or not he or she wants to take the case to the civil courts. Certainly, we're dealing with a monstrous bureaucracy, and certainly that is part of the problem. We, meaning we as a group of people, often say to the general public, this is not a homosexual disease. This is a disease that can affect anyone. It's going to move into the general population. Beware. Be careful. Do something about it now. The truth is that most of us who have this disease are either gay or were IV drug users. Is it bigotry?

I don't know. But it's certainly a lot easier to just say, well, it's a bunch of fags and junkies and who the hell cares. Anyway, that's the easy thing to do. Is that what's going on? How do you know? How can you tell? There's no way to know it. Certainly, I feel like a great part of it is simply, if not an active bias, then I give it down bias. I don't think that would be fair to say. And I can understand why a person would feel uncomfortable thinking that perhaps that prejudice does exist because in our whole society, I think we face that prejudice. That's not simply social security. It is indeed a bias that probably exists everywhere. I think that they are like many other state or federal agencies in that their employees need education around the disease, just as much as private businesses or the school systems or whatever. We have started doing education and training for AIDS, for example, with the Department of Human Services for all the social workers in the entire state.

It certainly would be appropriate for us or any other educational institution to come in and do some training or workshops on AIDS for their employees. And I think that will move us a little bit further ahead. But while they are taking steps to educate themselves and to educate the children and to learn what they need to do, they're ignoring and they're forgetting the people who actually have the disease, I personally don't want to try to convince anyone that what I am or what someone else is is right or wrong, that's not my objective. What I am that makes a difference is I am a citizen of this country. I have participated in this society. I have contributed to this society. I deserve the same rights as anyone else. Just because they don't like what I am doesn't mean they have a right to deny me my normal civil rights. The difficulty, those who need and feel entitled to social security assistance face and their struggle with the system has caused some to organize an advocacy group.

John Woods is a member of an organization known as the New Mexico Association of People Living With AIDS. His co-chairman is Jim Smith. We've asked around various places in the country, various cities and metropolitan areas what their ratio is to people with arch-applying for disability that are being given that disability. And we're finding that there are areas that are as high as 20, 25, even up to 45 percent of those with arch-applying for disability being given disability. Here in New Mexico out of, I believe, 18 or 19 arch applications last year, only one was granted disability because of their condition. Social security officials are perhaps understandably sensitive to criticisms that they are not processing disability benefits as quickly as systems in other states. Augustine Casa Rays is district manager of Social Security in New Mexico.

Disability is established based on guidelines. They're very clear as far as AIDS go. The guidelines are very, very clear as far as AIDS go, but as far as AIDS related complex, the definition is not as clear, and each individual has to have an individual medical determination to be made and that is made. And the percentage is very across the country, and the way Mr. Smith mentioned. New Mexico AIDS Services is the state's leading private agency in the fight against AIDS. Its purposes are both educational and to be of assistance to those who have been stricken with the disease. And increasingly, it finds itself caught in the middle between state and federal bureaucracies on the one hand and people with AIDS on the other. New Mexico AIDS Services president, Jeff McElroy.

The view from New Mexico AIDS Services is that we have heard the complaints of the New Mexico Association of People Living with AIDS. They are the ones who are the consumers in this service provided by the federal government. And we feel that if that service is not being presented to them in a way which they can make use of it, that that system needs to be looked at, we need to study it, we need to push the Social Security Administration, the Disability Determination Unit, and New Mexico AIDS Services staff, if necessary, to make sure that the services are delivered properly and that we must look at the overall systems involved nationwide to see why age-related conflicts is causing some problems in terms of whether or not they have disability. Mr. Kossler-Ray sticking, if you don't mind, just a moment with this, Rick Fairbanks, the administrator of the Disability Determination Unit, and I'll say it right now in case we fall into it, the DDU, tells us that nationally something like 68% of those with AIDS-related

conflicts, who file for disability, do indeed get their benefits, but that the rate is much, much lower here in New Mexico. Why would that be the case? Apparently you're all working with the same guidelines. That question can best be answered by Rick Fairbanks because he is the one that makes the determination for disability. Now, certainly, Social Security on a national level will give the guidelines, but he is a person that directs the unit that determines whether a person is disabled or not. Rick Fairbanks, may I get you back on this, Mr. Smith? Mr. Smith-Ray, well, what's your perception here? Mr. Smith-Ray, well, my perception is that there just is not an understanding among the medical adjudicators as they're called for the DDU or Disability Determination Unit, that they do not have an accurate understanding of what ARC really is and how ARC can be disabling, and in some instances, it can be as death-causing as full-fledged AIDS.

And we've approached Social Security to encourage them to have their adjudicators educated about ARC because we feel that that's primarily where the problem is at, that ARC has always been considered in the public's mind as being something less than AIDS. Rick Fairbanks-Ray, just to be called pre-AIDS. Mr. Smith-Ray, pre-AIDS, yeah. And as a result, the seriousness of it was not as great as for full-fledged AIDS. When over the years of the disease, we found out that many people with ARC suffer extreme neurological problems. They suffer many other diseases and infections that don't qualify them for full-fledged AIDS, but yet can be death-causing or life-threatening in their own. And that consequently, they need to look more closely at the way their adjudicators are viewing the disease. Now, we talked to an individual with AIDS-related complex out in the field, Mr. John Woods.

He works, but he says he can't promise from day to day that he'll be able to work and that when he's at work, he sometimes feels that he shouldn't be more often than not. He's feeling very bad. What happens? When a person who is disabled is a consequence of AIDS-related complex is denied disabilities. We know the appeal process, but in the meantime, what happens with their lives? What John is a medium case, I would say. There are people that are worse off than John, whose doctors have told them you should not be working. If you work, you're going to die faster. You're going to get more ill, and therefore do not work if you want to have more than just a few months or a year to live. And so they go to social security, and they apply, and they're denied, and in the process, they no longer can work, or they can not work full-time.

There's not any income coming in to support them. Consequently, the other services that are available to them like food stamps or general assistants are not flowing because they're not yet considered disabled. And extreme financial hardships are caused. People spend their life savings, people end up selling their homes. Any possessions that they have in order to support themselves and to pay off their medical bills, while they're waiting for social security to come through with the disability. Jeff McElroy, I think one of the first stories we did way back when, on the subject of AIDS in New Mexico, featured an individual near the end of his life. And I believe, I know at the time he said he had not yet gotten his benefits. I believe he either died before those benefits came through, or they came through just very shortly before his death.

How closely does an organization like yours, New Mexico AIDS Services Monitor, this lag as it were, between disability and benefits? That's the primary concern of our case managers that work with New Mexico AIDS Services, and that is to be sure that we have a safety net under the safety net, so to speak. We do have cash grants, which we provide to clients at New Mexico AIDS Services. So I think that what the real issue is here, how, is that we're now three years into this epidemic here in New Mexico, six, seven years into the epidemic in the major cities. And the surveys that I did, checking with other cities around the country, as I'm finding that social security offices and disability determination units are still having that same problem, that determining whether people should get benefits, there's still delays going on. And I think that AIDS and age-related complex is here. It's here to stay. It's a severe problem.

And I think that if social security and the federal government is going to react to the needs of the people who are affected by this disease, they need to be able to have some strong guidelines, and they need to be able to solve the problems quickly. It's sticking with this for a moment. Most of the experts to whom I have spoken over the years in covering the AIDS story say, look, that which is called full-blown AIDS. It is a formal AIDS diagnosis. It's really a somewhat arbitrary definition. The distinction between AIDS full-blown and AIDS-related complex may not be all that significant in terms of ultimate disabilities, which affect individuals, yet we aren't seems to me here, dealing with the flow of benefits based upon a distinction, which may not be that important, ultimately, in terms of disability. Do we need to re-examine fundamental assumptions here? We do. We need to realize we're talking disability. And AIDS and ARC, as categories, aren't distinct, the Centers for Disease Control recently just changed the definition of AIDS to broaden it, to include people who have dementia and

waste syndrome, which makes it a larger definition, but it's still not precise. And I think that the Social Security Administration has sent out directives taking the agency off of the CDC guidelines. CDC guidelines are for epidemiological purposes. And doctors use diagnosis for purposes within the hospital for purposes within their expertise as a physician. What we're talking about here is people, their lives, disability. And I think we need to be looking at disability, not looking at terms with 45 syllables to them. Mr. Costa, you suggested that we consult with Rick Fairbanks on why that 68% nationally that receive benefits doesn't happen here in New Mexico, where the rates are much lower. What he told us, that is of the disability determination unit, what he told us, was sort of what Jeff McElroy has just said here, is that Social Security itself needs to develop

better guidelines, better to fit the realities of AIDS-related complex, that they work pretty much with what they get. Now here, what you have to say about that? I agree with you, and you have to realize my position within Social Security. I'm not in a position of making those rules and regulations. But I can and I have passed those concerns to our regional office in Dallas to allow for better guidelines to come to the disability determination service. I'm not a representative of Social Security nationwide, I'm representing Social Security in the district office and the service that we provide here. The discrepancy is such that it should be looked at. The discrepancy between some states, like you were saying earlier, 10% in California, and maybe a little bit higher percent here, and a much greater percentage in New York.

What does it seem to suggest that something's happening in the community? Precisely, wouldn't it? Precisely. And Social Security, by my contact with the regional office in Dallas indicated, will be looking and it's not fast enough, it should be done now. It will be looking into the reason as to why the difference, why the discrepancy. Well, I guess my question is, if there is variance from state to state region to region in this country, it would seem to me that there must be some way within these guidelines redefined or not based upon the reality of the disease by which these benefits can get flowing to somebody, someplace, with greater reason they can to other people, other places. So, although you are a regional director, doesn't it suggest the problem could be in the regional office and not with the national guidelines? Well, I'm not certain that that can be defined that closely.

There is a difference, and like I said before, that needs to be reviewed and defined out of why the difference in the allowance rate between a state that would have 90% allowance in a state that would have 10% allowance for our cases. The decisions that are made by the disability determination unit are reviewed on a quality control basis, and so far they haven't shown that their development is deficient. I saw you wanting to get back in, am I mistaken? Well, I was just thinking, my conversation I had with the people in San Francisco, they've got theirs up to 10% for disabling ARC, but they've had to do that by a group of lawyers volunteering their time and fighting it on appeal, and I think that fighting it shouldn't be the way it has to go, and that there must be some sort of regional distinctions, because then when I talk to the social security person in New York City, he said that it's a national

program, so all the standards are the same, I can't explain to you why we're having such a high rate of acceptance of our cases and other places aren't. What do you think, Mr. Smith? Well, I think it's amazing the same thing happens here that once a person has gone through their last appeal, if they're ARC and they're going through their last appeal and they get denied, that they can hire a lawyer, which many of us have done, and have sued social security for our benefits, and in every single case that I'm aware of, benefits have been granted once the suit has gone through. So somewhere there is some type of communication that's just not getting across, there's some kind of understanding that's not happening, that's causing the denial of basic benefits and services to people that are in very desperate need of these services. Mr. Costa raised a few weeks ago, actually, I did a program with people living with cancer and heard actually many of the same complaints that I'm hearing and pursuing this story. These are sick people fighting for their lives, they've paid for these benefits over their

lifetime, yet they feel when it's time for them to reach for those benefits, they're not there. After the program, one of the participants who had had cancer said to me, we're dealing with bureaucracies for whom it is business as usual, but for us it is a matter of survival at a time when we don't have much fight left in us, must it be that way? Or some variation on those words, must it be that way? Well, let me just say that it's not just business as usual for social security to see people suffering and bank accounts depleted and things like that. The system that we're dealing with here is a system that is not an easy system to qualify for disability benefits, you must be severely disabled to be able to qualify it. The service that we can offer at the district office is to provide compassionate service to be able to guide people through the red tape if you want to call it that, and that's

what we're willing to do. What, Mr. Smith suggested that if you get an attorney, you're more apt to get results. Do you think that's a true statement? I really can't respond to that because I don't have any figures to back that up. One of the things I think Mr. Costa Rays I've discovered in pursuing this story is you're dealing with people who are sick, most of them feel they're dying. And we're dealing with attitudes, not only about their health, but about the social security system. I hear them say things, look, this is an insurance policy, this isn't charity, this isn't welfare, I paid my benefits. The assumption was when those benefits were needed, they would be there. Now I turn to the system and the benefits aren't forthcoming. It's an attitude about their health and the social security system. I know you have to work with this, but how does this, it isn't an insurance policy in a way, isn't it?

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. The guidelines that are said by social security about disability would now allow somebody, let's say, with a heart attack to automatically qualify for the benefits even if they couldn't work for three or four or five months, because the meaning of disability, the definition of disability, is such that it says that the person must be unable to perform any type of substantial, gainful work for a period of at least a year. That's pretty strict definition of disability, and it is an insurance when they meet the required definition of disability. Mr. Smith, I think I hear Mr. Costa Rays saying it's an insurance policy, but with limitations on the ability quickly to get benefits. Is that what you are here, and where does that leave folks with age-related, complex and age? Well, I understand that there are limitations to how quickly benefits can be given, but when you have individuals who have a presumptive diagnosis of AIDS, but are supposed to be receiving benefits within 20 days, waiting over six months, past that point for their benefits, and

there is something else that's going wrong besides it just taking time to process the claims. There is some organizational problem happening within the structure that is keeping it from being 20 days, and instead making it six months or longer, and that's all good and fine, but the one thing for us is that we are dying, and we are some of us are dying very quickly, others of us are dying very slowly. In the meantime, some of us are going hungry, some of us are going homeless. What do we do, telling us that the bureaucracy or the structure or the nature of the beast does not feed us, and it does not clothe us, and it does not keep us healthy? Folks, they tell me our time is up. These stories are always longer than the time they give us to tell them. Thank you all very much. Thank you. Thanks. We began our program this evening with a look at efforts to save one of Northern New Mexico's

great architectural treasures, the Lucero House near Espanola. We return to that story now for some final thoughts. It is our postscript tonight. Back here at the Lucero House, TG, you might be able to help us. What happened to the village, Los Luceros, between that interval of the Indian rebellion of 1680 and the return of the Spanish, some years later? We could only speculate, until a lot of that period, but we do know that the Teihuah village here, our fioge, left and went to Hopi land and are still there today. They are the Hano, Weblo people there, the Teihuah speakers in Hopi. Really there was some change in the population here in the valley at that time, of course, and movement of people, of the Pueblo peoples, and to different villages or not.

We do know that another village just north of here, near Liden Bridge, some of the people there, most of that Pueblo died out from smallpox, which was, of course, introduced by the Europeans. You mentioned the judge at the beginning segment of this evening's program. How this was a public building, the Rio Riba County Courthouse at one time. How did this become a public building? It was a private home first. Actually, it served as administrative headquarters, even in the 1700s. This was the district of Santa Cruz, and this was the administrative headquarters here. And then during the Mexican period, it was also an administrative headquarters in military. It was a garrison? Yes. And in fact, this is where the troops were trained for the Mexican military to push the Americans

out in the winter of 1846. Here are Jose Chavez from the abacue, came here, rallied the support of the sympathetic Mexican and Pueblo peoples to march on Santa Fe. And as I'm told, there was a Pueblo lady who tipped off the American troops at the palace, saloon, and told the American troops that they were coming. And so the American troops surprised the Mexican military at the hill of the martyrs. I'll be there. Do you suppose the judge, in his ghostly fashion, could be listening in on this conversation? I'm certainly his. Well, I'm good luck, judge. I hope they saved your old building. That tree over there, I hope you can get a shot of it because you tell me that's a hanging

tree that they actually brought people out here and hanged them after they were convicted. Is that true? That's the local story. And of course, that building, Jason to it, is the old county jail. Is it jail? Mm-hmm. TG, do you think people are entitled to know how terribly cold we are here and how we probably should take our leave? I think they should know that. Thanks so much, thank you. Tonight's post script, coming up next week, she's a journalist. Her name is Demetria Martinez. She says she was covering a sanctuary movement religious story, protected by the constitutional guarantee of a free press. This past December, however, a federal grand jury indicted her for conspiring to transport illegal aliens into the United States. And Albuquerque City Hall struggles with financial hard time, and perhaps another tax increase, as it grapples with a new budget for the coming fiscal year.

So until next week, then, I'm Hal Rhodes on assignment. Thank you for joining us, and good night. Broadcast of on assignment is locally funded by KNME viewer contributions and by a grant

from American home furnishings at American Square and Albuquerque and at American Plaza in Farmington, locally owned and operated since 1936. And the Mountain Bell Foundation. Thank you.