John F. Kennedy Library Foundation; WGBH Forum Network; 50th Anniversary of Kennedy/Nixon Debates

Theodore Sorenson served as President Kennedy's special counsel and was one of his most trusted colleagues. Our most frequent speaker here at the Kennedy Library. Each time he graces us with his presence we are reminded by his recall and quick wit of why JFK kept him so close to his side. Sander Vanocur is one of the nation's preeminent print and broadcast journalists having worked for ABC and NBC News The New York Times and The Washington Post journalist humorous essayist and biographer Russell Baker is a two time Pulitzer Prize winner the first for his distinguished commentary as a nationally syndicated columnist for The New York Times and the second for his autobiography growing up like John F. Kennedy William Wilson understood before many others the dramatic role television would play in modern presidential campaigns. A pioneer in political broadcasting he was the first person hired as a television advisor for a presidential campaign serving Adelaide Stephenson and 1056 Marty Nolan is a veteran journalist who became a reporter for The Boston Globe in 1981 in 1066 he won the Pulitzer Prize for investigative journalism and went on to become the Globe's Washington bureau

chief and the editor of its editorial page. Whether it be baseball or political trivia no one is quicker with his recall of historical anecdotes and their larger meaning than our moderator. Time and time again that an elephant never forgets. And a 40 year career with The Globe correspondent and Washington columnist Tom Oliphant earned a Pulitzer Prize as one of three editors on special assignment to manage the paper's coverage of the efforts to desegregate the city schools. He is the moderator we turn to most often for his command of the facts and for the pleasure he takes in engaging all of you and our panelists. So please join me in welcoming him along with Sandy Baker Bill Wilson and Marty Nolan to mark the 50th anniversary of the Kennedy Nixon. Thank you. Thank you very much Tom. And for all you do here by the way. You know if some of you would like a special treat after this babbling is

over the sea you might want to go down the stairs here to the exhibits area where with regard to the event where discussing tonight among other things you can see this little primitive desk the kind of thing that would have been in your room in high school. And it was the desk from which Howard K. Smith that CBS moderated that first debate. And I always love to look at it because it reminds me how primitive that beginning was. And yet Tom used the number 70 million which you sometimes hear about the size of that audience. There are studies that were done by the networks themselves and they do know how to do this that that put the number of Americans who watched one or all of these debates at over 100 million maybe as high as one hundred twenty five

million which makes that series of events weekly beginning September 26. The event up to that time in the entire history of the world no event had been seen by as many people give you an idea of what it was. And so to perhaps introduce this enormously important historic sequence of evenings. I was going to ask each of my learned friends to tell me precisely where they were. When Howard K. Smith. Opened the first debate in Chicago in the studios of WB B.M. the CBS affiliate. Ted where precisely in the building were you. Me first. This is a tax supported nonpartisan institution.

I feel like I should make it clear that totally objective debate between the sainted John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon. One whose enemies list I had I was in the studio not on the sound stage where the debate took place but I was in the studio watching. Did they have a little room where you were an assistance to the president watched the debate. Bill. Yes I thought you said you were in it. Yes I was. Indeed. After having spent the entire day virtually with the candidate I did going over last minute things so there was a little room for AIDS which there is to this day still Bill. Indeed and the Kennedy campaign even in 1960 and I shouldn't

I should say especially in 1960 was as was famous for the quality of the advance work Bill. If 1960 were 2010 and you had the kind of media culture then that you have today there would be people who would be surmising that it's because of Bill Wilson that Senator Kennedy was elected president. You worked with him real reach. But that's the nature of the modern media. It's a little more factual in those days. But you spent a lot of time with him personally in the hours leading up to the beginning of that for and tell us what you did and where you were. Well there was a moment I think had a lot to do with the success of the debate. Basically he was in all the pre-production activity with each of the networks that were running the

base. Richard Nixon had his man who was Ted Rogers and JFK had me and we would sit with the director the stage manager and the set designer and design each of these panels. And but the moment that is most important I think to the debate was we were in the room with Ted Kennedy and JFK and they were still grilling him a little bit getting him up to speed and there was a sense that this was a very big moment because the problems and 60 were inexperience and name recognition and Catholicism. Those were the issues there were really any other in terms of the voters there were in terms of the media.

But at a particular point in the green room where we were holding I said we've said to Kennedy that we had to get make up and we went but he said we'll find out if Nixon is going to get back. So I went and there was Ted Rogers saying is your guy going to get made. And I said not until your guy and it was a Mexican standoff I reported back to Kennedy who said well I'm not going to get made. I said you've got to have something. You have a good tan. But you have to close the pores in that face because those lights in 1960 were huge broad lights he was going to be there for an hour as Nixon found. So I write I had started my career at that television station 10 years before less than 10 and I knew that there was a place around the corner I ran across some pancake

came back and put it on him which he didn't like at all. But I said the poor supporters are going to. Here was a significant moment in the debate as far as I was concerned. We made our way to the stage but we were outside the opening to the studio stage and I had a checklist of all the things that should be primaried. But until he entered in and sat in that chair and I blew the checklist because I went out for that pancake makeup. And so as we hit the stage he said I have to go to the bathroom. It was on my checklist and I forgot it. And I took him to where he was supposed to go. I heard the stage manager doing 10 and. He made that stage on one. What it did

was freeze the room because everybody there thought where without one of the contests. And to Nixon because JFK walked in sat down across his legs like this and didn't look at anybody. Now part of the lore bell. Is that when you came over to the studio what the Ambassador Kennedy. OK. That you took a look at him in the studio and he had a white shirt on and you thought not for television or a blue shirt somehow in a dark suit. That was very important. Gets to like that because in those meetings I had him do a light beige background if you have a dark suit on your pop right out. And of course Nixon had a gray suit on the back in the background. Sandy the most important thing I was able to do I've always believed in terms of dealing with the look of the of the debate was the

pole and the shelf on top for the because it was an eloquent man. And I've always said that you perceive someone by 50 percent Body Language 25 percent attitude and 25 percent. What they say. Oh. That's from my POV that's. That. Thanks a lot. So what this means is that thanks to this guy. 50 years later we have these ridiculous looking podiums for their boxes. From then on. That's right. Thanks to you Sandy. Depending on one's perspective you either had the worst seat in the House or the best seat in the house. How did you come to occupy it and what's the difference between being in a press

room somewhere and having to be part of the event. I was in the fourth seat on the orders of our producer director Don Hewitt. I didn't see the debate. People say you didn't see it. And I think about Groucho Marx who you going to believe me or your lying eyes. Those of us who were the panelist did not see what the nation saw on television. The next morning I located governor of Connecticut the first governor to declare for a Kennedy and he had been driving the night before from Sacramento to San Francisco. And I said What do you think. He heard it on the radio and he said I think the Nixon won. Kenny O'Donnell

was in Painesville Ohio with the senator and I said What do you think at 7 o'clock Frank Clough she who is a senator a Democrat who voted with Republicans knocked on the door to congratulate Kennedy. I thought then Kennedy had probably heard the way but the key thing is people say. What you see and I said we saw it with our naked eyes and that's different than what the nation saw or on radio what the nation heard. But at the end of the debate in the room cleared out almost automatically. There were no handlers there on either side to tell you what you'd seen or heard. That. Makes me observe that a poor slob who has to actually cover this story. The three of us we've all been in that position and presidential debate night. Today there are seven hundred fifty television monitors

surrounding you in a cavernous well lubricated press. There are people bombarding you with opinions from one side or the other either through your computer or in your ear and person. What were the circumstances like where were you. I was in the room across the. Corridor from where the show was monitor. So I could get whatever they did with it. I was busy yeah.

And then I managed to get it all out by the time the debate was over. But it was not much of a story. Actually I had stand how many editions Excuse me did you have to file for that. Well I have no idea but it was three or four different stories and listening to what's been said before I'm struck by how primitive you know we're talking about who won and who lost the war. It's just a figure you cut. Nobody was listening. My memory of it was that they talked about two islands off the coast for most of Taiwan. And arguing about diplomacy

over the nobody. I couldn't believe anybody cared in the country. And it made of I thought a very thin story. Kennedy was impressive because he came out I guess well equipped but Ted with statistics. I was really impressed but Kennedy you spew statistics that came out of this guy really knows a lot. He cut that figure. But I didn't see what the nation was seeing and listening. Which was this figure of this dynamic elegant figure. If I could gently contradict you just a touch from your own story that night which I studied a couple of times further down in it after the basics of the story have been reported you made an observation that I think is extraordinarily pression.

And I want to get Marty to talk about this in a second that. The difference is between Kennedy and Nixon that. We're on the one hand not particularly sharp in your observation and second place. You wrote that they were not particularly sharply expressed. And that as a result you said it appeared that the event was most important to them in terms of how it influenced public perceptions of them as potential presidents as opposed to what they said. But you did and and the desk didn't change and it appears to have been printed in. In other words did back in 1960 there is evidence that at least some people in the press particularly editors were very interested in having you tell the country what these people said. Yeah.

What a strange notion primitive to answer people. Somebody was interested in content. Nowadays you don't. People don't listen to television they look at television and they were looking and I was listening to the people I think are very shrewd long Kennedy was really up for that. He came in looking and rested for everything. Great performance. You were aware that somebody was aware of it. But the notion that we're debating. I watched a lot of presidential debates. Nobody even pretends to Marty. First of all tell us where you were so what about you were younger. Yeah pretty good looking and I was in the News Room of the student newspaper at Boston College

and it was closing night and weekly. And I said lads let's get this. Hockey Team story plays great we got to get rid of a television set we had but we know pubs that have them and so we did the American thing and went to a pub and of course everything was black and white television there. And I remember my first impression and I was fairly precocious the political television watcher that I can recall watching the Crime Commission hearings and certainly the. Funder speech which is what Richard Nixon called the Checkers speech and the army McCarthy hearings with the Boston attorney Joseph and Welch very famously. So when I looked at this really I knew it was historic because it was it had never happened in presidential politics before. I mean Lincoln and Douglas debated for the Senate in 1858. And I remember looking at Nixon and feeling. Automatically sorry for because he looked so ghastly.

He had a gray suit on against a gray background and he looked sallow and Kennedy was great and of course we were all for Kennedy but first notion of Nixon and then of course I was so entranced with that. Years later when the government the GPO the Government Printing Office actually printed the transcript of all the speeches of each candidate in 1968 and then also the joint appearances and I had that book. Green and the cover on it and a good intellectual exercise some day would be to go through it in certain paragraphs say which candidate said this. I just looked at it recently and I said Oh I see what Kennedy was for single payer because that's where Walter Ruther and all the union guys wanted on health care. And guess what. Nixon was advocating what we now call Obamacare. So you just had that Nixon Nixon Nixon would not pass muster of the Tea Party rally today.

So the substance of it which was in the newspapers certainly the New York Times and it's a scar despondent or. You know still overwhelmed what everybody thought did you see the debate. Very few people say Did you hear the debate because you know it was an event. And of course a profoundly changed politics. And you know I can do this briefly because it introduces one more relevant in and the narrative I was about to graduate from high school. And in Southern California and my best friend and I constituted the entire field organization for the Kennedy Johnson take it in northern San Diego County where where it was which was the right wing that the John Birch Society we're the moderates. And we had orders from headquarters to go up to a little town just south of Oceanside where we were going to canvass in a Democratic neighborhood after the debate and my friend's father drove us out and we heard the debate on the radio. Nervous not knowing what to

think and then saw it and were thrilled and we went out and canvassed in Ensign ETA's California until 11 p.m. and raise two hundred dollars which was a lot of money in those days. Ted I want to ask you there's been a lot of anti substance rhetoric here on the panel so far. And I wanted to ask you about your work with Senator Kennedy on the opening statement as some of you may know that all of you should be reminded. This is the beginning of the use of the word debate to describe something that doesn't quite fit the definition of what you think of as a debate. In this first one in Chicago both the senator and the vice president made opening statements that lasted almost nine minutes apiece and they were also each given closing statements that exceeded four minutes apiece. Now do the math. It's an hour of television. There were 10 questions

asked and answered during that first exchange. So that meant that in terms of political impact not only how they look but what they said in those first five and then nine first nine minutes of exposure was critical. And I remember at the time and ever since being stunned at the way Senator Kennedy began it was a debate about domestic issues and the first words out of his mouth were about the Cold War and how we couldn't win if we didn't move forward at home. And all the things that Russ was talking about that he's dissatisfied with about the pace of progress are like were you trying to achieve in that opening statement because it set the tone for that evening. Kennedy seen from the very beginning was he was not satisfied. We've got to do better we've got to get this country moving because the Soviet Union is surpassing us and we have to be strong

and that means a strong economy. And he said Wade drink to overtake the Soviet Union and to build on our economic strength at home where too much was going wrong. Yes it's true that agreement had been reached and Bill and I were part of the Kennedy team that met with the Nixon team and the network Representatives. We agreed on the eight minute openings we agreed on the four minute closings. We agreed there would be only four debates as you know. The Nixon people. Do you remember this bill the Nixon people. Did not want that. They didn't want their candidate sitting near a candidate on the claim that that would make them seem equal and Kennedy would win just by showing up.

They wanted candidates further apart. That's why debate number three the first two or three thousand miles of L.A. and New York today. Anyway I think there was plenty of substance in that opening about we've got to get this country and deploring what was happening particularly at the bottom of the economic ladder. He even mentioned civil rights to his credit and that opening statement on the discrimination against black Americans. And he had some pretty good has Martin pointed out Nixon was full of statistics. But in typical fashion he was answering Kennedy. Kennedy was addressing the

nation. It just ticks were all boring. Just how Eisenhower had done better than Truman. Nobody was debating that as far as I know but that's what Nixon focused on. And may I say one word about the myth which. Others repeated here that Nixon won on radio that all due respect to a river cough. There's no such thing as Nixon winning on the radio. Sure he sounded more like debate. And it's true they couldn't see that ghastly look that. Mentioned makeup. First person perspiration and his very nervous shifty eyes.

Dr Laura but the people on the radio could still hear Nixon's weekend sers went. After her. At the very beginning. Kennedy answered the first question with why we had had it and Nixon who had received a phone call at the last minute from running mate Massachusetts man I was and saying Don't be the assassin. Get over that old Texan image be a nice guy. So when Howard said Mr. Vice President what is your comment. He said I have no God no. And later on he would say I agree with that. I agree on this right. I mean the right wing Republicans are furious with me. Cannot people on radio heard that and they also heard go back to form and the Tea Party today would agree. When Nixon said what

Senator Kennedy is proposing a dollar twenty five an hour minimum wage is too extreme. I want to ask help from Russ and Sandie to understand what Nixon was trying to do on that stage. Ted has mentioned the when they got to the Q and A It really is true that after Senator Kennedy took the question and Howard K. Smith turned to Nixon to ask for a con and he Nixon really did say I have no comment. But I'm also interested in the beginning of Nixon's prepared statement which followed Senator Kennedy's. And here is the catchy opening line. The things that Senator Kennedy has said many of us can agree with. The disagreement that we have is over. The means to reach the goals that we share. Now that thought and that phrase just

almost literally by my count was repeated six different times during the debate. Can you help me understand from your knowledge of the state of the campaign as of that night. What was Nixon trying to accomplish with his demeanor. Forget his appearance for a second because we'll get back to Bill and I think Nixon was trying to minimize the combative specter of the campaign. He thought he had he's coming out of the great triumph of the glory days of the poison our administration and the all he had to do was ride Eisenhower's coattails. They've been victorious of everything they did the country was at peace. Things were going well. There's no need to argue about the point I think. I remember I was covering Nixon on a daily basis at the time and that was a speech he gave five or six times a day.

Everything was fine. Why should we disagree. You know quote me along with Sandy to get you in here. At that moment as of that night right the to the extent there were polls in those days hat perhaps Nixon ever so slightly ahead but certainly not by any thing approaching a comfortable margin. Did you have the sense sitting there that the vice president was trying to play it safe and sit on a lead. Or what did you think he was up to that exactly right. He was singing but what Kennedy was capitalizing on was I think Sputnik in 1958. I remember. Flying in. To National Airport on the Caroline after the primaries and he threw something over and said this is unacceptable. The Wall Street Journal article was simply there for the first time the Soviet Union had exceeded the United States in the production of

machine tools which was the gauge of a country's problems. And Kennedy said this is unacceptable. I think that Kennedy was on the attack. And Nixon was on the defense. And I don't think he was helped very much by Eisenhower. I think that's very important to the proceedings. We're going to get to that one because we have a video Anat that Marty who probably knows more about Nixon than anybody alive or dead. Or both. Here's this dichotomy again isn't it for us here. Nice guy. Awful guy like me. I don't like you. Is this familiar even 50 years ago. Oh this is don't forget for Richard Nixon to get to this point to get the nomination he had to take on the Rockefeller fortune and.

Nixon. I always see of him as a Dickensian waif. His nose significant nose pressed against the glass looking at all the sugar plums inside that he can get. And he has said as much I mean he was a very good writer I commend his writing. Is Six Crises is as it were Nixon had as the ring of honesty I mean a lot of his gripes filtered through that. It's it's a HL Mencken months reviewed Calvin Coolidge's autobiography say well whatever it is it's accurate and even if it's not true it's accurate. And. And Nixon So Nixon had this. I mean this he just nursed his resentment resentments for a flowering garden. And distain for those rich people the Rockefellers and the Kennedys. And I'm not one of them. You know work on my dad's farm and all.

And so it's and he was born he was born in a log cabin like anyone else he was born in the house his father built from the Sears Roebuck catalog. And it's still there and you're a Berliner right there. And so he did have that terrible burden and to go against Nelson Rockefeller was a pretty glamorous fellow and intelligent fellow. And then just survived that and then the guy he much preferred Lyndon Johnson or Stewart slimy conventional Rush did you have any sense that night or covering him on a daily basis of what kind of national leader he wanted to be in in 1968 contacts and again to help us understand his demeanor that night. No I don't think he had any idea I mean Nixon was one of those politicians who love the game. It was victory or it was defeat. He just loved the game. I don't really think he had much vision. I didn't would like to make a point that has been

touched that. Started with him on the campaign. At the opening of the campaign he decided he was going to fly across the country and make four stops. But before we took off he did something extraordinary. He had a reception for the press the press that was going with him and we were invited down to the Mayflower or wherever. And bring your wife along. I took my wife chance to meet him and. Nixon came in. He looked ghastly. Physically he had lost weight. He had been in the hospital for a long period with an infection. And he hadn't recovered and I was shocked to see it. I hadn't seen him for several weeks and there he was Sec. You know. He's. Frail. And he hadn't gotten over that I think

came two weeks after that. You know something about this because you were right at the place with my heart and he did it again and again and everybody grabbed for him that he was in the hospital. You know he didn't look right. Now on the other hand one of the time the lore was that Nixon had not worn any makeup that night and as near as I can tell that's not true right. Bill there was a product in those days really test your memory for people who developed what came to be known as 5 o'clock shadow. I think men and they did it and it was called lazy shit. Right right. And you put it on and it was it's sort of like oh that's Ted Rogers couldn't run to the corner and get a pancake makeup the way you could he used it

which just intensified any kind of sweat that would come through and it also intensified the absence of contrast between the way he presented and this very light background behind him now. Also Ted Rogers who was Nixon. Yes. And had had had produced the Checkers speech in 1052 so very experienced in this new medium. I think he was the guy who rode with Nixon or talked to him just before the debate. And we've heard a little bit about the advice from of all people that experience national politician Henry Cabot Lodge to be a nice guy and get rid of the assassin image but what I've always been told is that the media people said don't let him get away with anything. I replied to every charge being vigorous and aggressive and something went wrong.

Here's a guy he trusted obviously and didn't listen to exactly when when a candidate becomes the presidential candidate the very group gets around him. And even if you had a long term relationship with him as it did having done the checkers. Yes. He had a lot of trouble being where he should be. Sandy we have a little video that's illustrative of several things actually that. If you think about modern debates and the questions that get asked in them you can see an early example of a hope that I do too or I'm dead dead. But let's for a second look at a rather good looking young network correspondent. Well there were other features them asking perfectly understandable but actually an

usual question of Nixon and one that had been had come up a couple of times before that night and he'll tell us the story after we see. I hope the clip. Good evening. The television and radio stations of the United States and they are affiliated stations are proud to provide facilities for discussion of issues in the current political campaign by the two major candidates for the presidency. The candidates need no introduction. The Republican candidate Vice President Richard Nixon and the Democratic candidates. Senator John F. Kennedy and the first opening statement by Senator John F. Kennedy. They're not going to run. Mr. Nixon in the election of 1860. Abraham Lincoln said the question was whether this nation could exist. Slavery free. In the election of 960 and with the world around us. The

question is whether the world will exist. Slave or half free. Whether it will move in the direction of freedom in the direction of the road that we are taking or whether it will move in the direction of slavery. The question now is Can freedom be maintained under the most severe attack it has ever known. I think it can be and I think in the final analysis it depends upon what we do here. I think it's time America started moving again. And now the opening statement by Vice President Richard M. Nixon before. That Senator Kennedy has said many of us can agree with. There is no question but that we cannot discuss our internal affairs in the United States without recognizing that they have a tremendous bearing on our international position. There is no question but that this nation cannot stand still. Let's put it in terms that all of us can understand. We often hear gross national product discussed and in that respect may I say that when we

compare the growth in this administration with that of the previous administration that then there was a total growth of 11 percent over seven years in this administration there's been a total growth of 19 percent. It isn't enough to compare what might have been done eight years ago or 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago. I want to compare what we're doing with what our adversaries are doing so that by the end 970 the United States is ahead in education in health in building in homes and economic strength. I think it shows the difference between the two parties one party is ready to move in these programs the other party gives them lip service. The next question to Senator Kennedy from Mr. No you call for expanding some of the welfare programs for schools for teacher salaries medical care and so forth but you also called for reducing the federal debt. And I'm wondering how you if you were president in January would go about paying the bill for all this there's me that advocate I did not advocate reducing the federal debt because I don't believe that you're going to be

able to reduce the federal debt very much 1061 two or three and if you have heavy obligations which affect our security which we're going to have to meet and therefore I've never suggested we should. Be able to retire the debt substantially or even at all 1060 want to live and one of us because you have a test of that reducing the interest rate would help toward now. Now we're not being used at all interest reducing the interest rate in my judgment the hot money tight money policy fiscal policy this administration has. Attributed to the slowdown in our economy it is essential that a man who is president of this country certainly stand for every program that will mean for growth. And I stand for programs that will mean growth and progress. But it is also essential that he not allow a dollar spent that could be better spent by the people themselves. If connection comes out of the Republican Party he was nominated by it and it is a fact that through most of these last 25 years the Republican leadership has opposed federal aid

for education medical care for the aged development of the Tennessee Valley development of our natural resources. I think Mr. Nixon is an effective leader of his party. I hope he would grant me the same. The question before us is which point of view and which party do we want to leave the United States. Mr Nixon would you like to comment on this. I think the next question Republican campaign slogans you see them on signs around the countries or did last week say its experience that concepts over a picture of yourself share implying that you have more governmental executive decision making experience than your opponent. Now in his news conference in August. President Eisenhower was asked to give one example of a major idea of yours that he adopted. His reply was and I'm quoting. If you give me a week I might think of one. I don't remember. I can only say that my experience is there for the people to consider Senator Kennedy's is there for the people to consider. As he pointed out we came to the Congress in the same year. His

experience has been different from mine. Mine has been in the executive's branch has been in the legislative branch. I would say that the people now have the opportunity to evaluate his as against mine. And I think both he and I are going to abide by whatever the people decide. If you feel that everything that is being done now is satisfactory. But the reality of power and prestige and strength of the United States is increasing in relation to that of the Communists that we have gaining more security that we are achieving everything as a nation that we should achieve that we're achieving a better life for US citizens and greater strength. And I agree I think you should vote for Mr. Nixon only you can decide what you want what you want this country to be what you want to do with the future. I think we're ready to move and it is to that great task if we're successful that we were dressed ourselves. Thank you very much gentlemen this hour has gone by all too quickly.

Other debates in this series will be announced later and will be on different subjects. This is Howard K. Smith. Good night from Chicago. I apologize for the back view of Sandy which was if if Bill Wilson had been in charge of his image that night that that never would have happened. Sandy as you know better than I. Nixon hated that question so much that he even wrote about it in the book he wrote the following year partially dissecting his defeat. Why did you ask it. I asked because it was standing out there waiting to be asked. It grew out of a question put to him by a very able reporter for The New York Times. Charles Moore a char who along with David Halberstam. Just give the New York Times wonderful coverage from Vietnam. Because the Republicans had been making that an issue in the campaign its experience that

counts and I think President Eisenhower never liked Richard Nixon very much and I think he was dismissive in that answer. It was careless and reckless and steward Novins whom you just saw asked part of the question before and it never got finished. So it was hanging there waiting to be finished rests in the part of Nixon's answer that wasn't shown on the screen. He first tried to smile and suggest that President Eisenhower was joking that he wasn't serious. And again as somebody who had to deal with him every day what do you remember about the exchange. About the exchange today. Oh I thought you were talking about Eisenhower saying he'd think might have a bit of that. But it was an extraordinary moment in the campaign.

Well Nixon was you know he. Was I said Nixon. Like the fight he liked the game he treated government as a game he was always winning. And when the game went against him he took it very hard. But like he's in his campaign he said he said throughout. Was the words done a wonderful job and he was going to continue it. Not much to argue about. Did he ever come to grips with how he felt about Eisenhower. How eyes and how I felt about him. Well as he would say I'm glad you asked. I mean Nixon he would been vice president for eight years but he was vice president for commander in chief who looked upon the vice presidency as a job for a young staff guy. And and if you look at the list of Eisenhower's possible

nominees they were all young. And the vice presidency is not a job for a young man. It's the last happy vice president we had. Was Alvin Barkley of Kentucky who is older than Harry Truman and maybe Joe Biden who was older than Joe Biden should read his memoirs. Nineteen sixty eight December of 1968 I'm covering the Johnson White House and it is the event you'd think it's a big event. The president elect and Mrs. Nixon show up at the White House and the president and Ladybird both come out onto the driveway which is a nice touch of you know protocol. In the White House press corps about a dozen people at this time. Not a big big story. And so we wait around and Nixon comes out and I had covered his whole campaign in his congressional campaigns and he had gone through the humiliation of losing the California

governorship and to being all this. I was vice president and he looked absolutely seraphic be a tific. He never looked happier. He said Oh and thank President Mrs. Johnson so much. Patton I have seen parts of the White House we've never seen. Maybe And I just wrote oh you know and I'm looking over Bryce Harlow who had worked for Ike. And he's like don't look at me. And I was just telling touching you know. More more monuments to his recent pile of resentments and that's and so I guess. They'd asked me to cover his final speech so I could observe. And when President elect Kennedy gave the industrial complex that was there and I hung out with Haggerty and Robert Montgomery who was Eisenhower's

press secretary James Haggerty. Yeah and Robert my grandma who was a movie star. And advisor to the president. I walked into their office that day that evening and I looked very young. And both their mouths just dropped to the floor and then I went to the studio and observed the speech that he gave. There was only one of it in there and when he came to the industrial military complex point we both looked at each other just like that it was a startling moment. After the speech Jim Haggerty said Bill would you like to meet the president and I said Certainly. And he introduced me to. Eisenhower. Who looked at me then looked over his shoulder at Robert Montgomery and said Bob have you met your replacement. There it is. I am going to ask Ted's help on an aspect of this in a second. But first I wanted to tell you Walt that we're getting close to that

moment in a Kennedy Library evening when you get to go to the microphone stand with some allowance for brevity ask anything you want and if there's something on your mind you might want to think about slowly going toward the microphones. We're going to talk about one other element aspect of the debates rather and that is the sharpest conflict that was raised during them. But first so feel free but in about 10 minutes we'll we'll start taking questions Ted. The experience question had loomed so large Up until that night in Chicago. Do you think the issue changed after that night or after the debates and did it change Senator Kennedy. The next day in Ohio one of the other panelists mentioned not only did Frank Loesser she join the motorcade but the turnout for the

motorcade was larger than it ever been before. Including Do you remember the leaders the younger women who some are going. To. See over the people standing in front of them. We have never seen them but they were in great numbers. The next day and that was only one sign of what was to come. Indeed now before we get I just yes of course of course there was much made earlier about Nixon's hospitalization. And it reminds me of one of JFK his greatest or two of his great lines combined in one. He said when Mr. Nixon was in the hospital I said as a matter of fairness equity I would not mention him unless I could speak of him favorably. And you notice I haven't spoken up.

There it is. Thank you. Now. We have we have highlighted Sandy's question and Nixon's answer because it seemed to go to the heart of. Part of what was before the country that that year. But there was one other thing in these four debates that really did rise to the level of a campaign issue. It popped up in a question almost at the end of the second debate. It was present in the third and the fourth and you can always tell in a presidential campaign when something important has happened in a debate if both sides talk about it for several days thereafter. And it involved two tiny little islands off the coast barely off the coast of what was then called communist China. And the issue was whether the United States either was obligated to go to war to defend

them if attacked by the Chinese Communists or chai calms if you were in the CIA at the time or not. The issue came up in a question by one of the panelists that night when we all remember Edward P. Morgan ABC. Senator Kennedy. Saturday on television you said you would always thought that Quemoy and Matsu were unwise places to draw our defense line in the Far East. Would you comment further on that. And also comment on whether a pullback would constitute appeasement. A very dirty word. In 1960 the result was a back and forth on this question of these two tiny little islands Sandy was in an argument about nothing or what were the stakes for each campaign in this argue.

I think most people in the country thought it was a Chinese song and dance act. Nobody knew where the hell these were. What he cared where they were. And I don't think it was an issue except. If it reminded people of the phrase who lost China. But I don't think that resonated I swear. I think it is. I want to get the country moving again. It was the Catholic issue which I think was very very tough with Kennedy he didn't win by much you know. And I think the Catholic issue resonated throughout the whole campaign. When you when you first heard it how did Quemoy and Matsu strike you was it a good part did it bring the story alive a little bit. Well I was writing for The Times. It's an audience that might be interested in writing for the. Chronicle

but I might not have got to it. Is that another way of saying that in your judgment you agree with Sandy that for all of the sharpness of the exchanges that went on after all for two weeks here. That this was something that just didn't interest the country very much. Sandy put his finger on it it raises the question. The Republicans for years had feet feasted on the Democrats who lost China. And this might work once more once more. We might run it around the middle once war didn't work they were two tiny islands within 10 miles of the mainland or whatever and we were committed to defending Taiwan. With the fleet. I believe there was a firm commitment on that. Yes we have that and should should these two tiny islands be brought into that defense.

And yet Marty 12 years later this guy goes to China. Did he lack. The conviction. Well it was this is this is why getting into Nixon's head is a labyrinthine journey from which tribe born from which no traveller returns. He in his written notes which are totally different from his speeches press conferences and especially the tapes. It was a good mix of the things he wanted to do and Kissinger fed that ambition megalomania whatever you want to call it and detente was a great idea let us you know let us do something about the situation. And and he knew that it was a brilliant election ploy. Oh I think we were in the New

Hampshire covering the Ed Muskie George McGovern showdown and they couldn't get on page 17. I mean Nixon's in China. And with every major newspaper in the country except the Boston Globe of Europe that's a tad did Senator Kennedy worry about Ken Lay and Matt So when this happened and when it kept happening day in and day out on the campaign trail and in two more of the debates. How did you see it as a potential threat. I'm not sure I think we saw it more as a potential opportunity instead of a threat. Richard Nixon consistent with his lifelong anti communism wanted to show that he was ready to go to war even against communist China. And Senator Kennedy wanted to show that he was not. I still remember I was in my hotel room in New York before the third debate. And I

received over the transom supporter but he documented a quotation from a very distinguished general. Those two islands are not worth the blood of a single American. And. That's striking gold. You know I proposed Marty's comment earlier that you sometimes can't tell in one thousand sixty terms who the candidate is saying what one of the things that Senator Kennedy did as kids and that's who was festering was turned Cuba around on Nixon. And here's Kennedy advocating getting in tight with the exiles you can almost guess at what's coming. Not very many months in the future. And Nixon is arguing in public against doing precisely that. So maybe someone did. Do you think Nixon Nixon already knew about the Bay of Pigs. Right. You and he did because can you hating. And did

did Senator Kennedy know. Did he know you were preparing. Absolutely not yet even been briefed on that nor had his foreign policy representative. That's right but the attack on Kennedy was more attacking him for releasing secret right nation. That's right. There it is. Give me one second and I'll tell a final story about this suggesting that Sandy may be right. Every politician in America during this period was being asked what he thought about Quemoy and Matsu and one of them was Ross Barnett the governor of Mississippi who gave off only about 15 watts of intellectual. Fire power and he was asked one day at a news conference What's your position on came Oya Natsume governor. And he looked helplessly at an assistant and said them those two fellers I put on the fishing and him compared to last year.

And they're everywhere remember. Remember this though. The two leading publication this country time in Reader's Digest were both run by sons of Chinese missionaries. DEWITT WALLACE The Reader's Digest and Henry lose and it's not possible to underestimate the torture we suffered from the question who lost China. You have been very very patient. Please feel free to go to the. Bank. Thank you Michael Holmes and when I'm going to do as best I can is to try to direct the questions to one person up here in the interests of time and allowing as many as possible please go right ahead. I actually have two that you could use. First it seems unfortunate. It's fun to talk about the debate but it seems unfortunate that so much would turn on whether Nixon was sweating or had the right color suit on. That sounds very contemporary. I'd be interested to comment on that. The other question was Does anyone

want to venture what they think would have happened had Nixon won the election. Well discard the latter. Go with the former. And it really goes to the heart of what Bill Wilson does. You don't think it's about nothing do you Bill. Boy you you had two people to compare for the first time. And I Ted Rogers and I went out for a drink after the base and both of the fact we produce a television program The rich 90 million people. But is that comparison of who do you like and who do you like that comes in that format. I think it's contained in one thing and I think Hemingway answered the question I don't know who asked it. The rich are different from you and me. Hemingway said yes they have more money. Kennedy had more money. Nixon's danced. Where a lot of people are murmuring It's Fitzgerald.

But we don't care. You have been very strict it's not your money. It's true but it's not right. You have also been very patient. Thank you very much. I could and I have to be I have a couple of questions. First of all the first time and. I don't think I was. I just I don't think I and. The next day people were saying I've got the papers but. That I want to say I can be only for the subject. But.

He was a he has never happened. And have never landed there at home. And also because. I've tried to read and I love biography and I loved the piece. But the other I was from I write I was created to care. For. Sally. It just it was wonderful to see everybody here this is a question I've seen here before and very proud and. Read his part at. I just really happy. With. Him. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK

YOU. All right I have. Several you have comments on the fact that over these last 50 years there's been a definite trend to having more style than substance and debates. My question is sort of threefold have we made progress. Is this good for democracy. And does this make the electorate more easily manipulated. Martin is not to be be manipulated. Marty is going to take that and I hope Ted will comment on his answer. Well consider the alternative we went to from 1960 to nine hundred seventy six with no debates because Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon said no way Lyndon Johnson saw it happen the Nixon Nixon saw what happened the Nixon. And I gave the old Heisman trophy to that you know. And. But one gift Nixon This gave the Republic was to resign so that Gerald Ford could not afford not to debate. And even you know he he could have been ahead in the polls and all

that but he had to debate because he was not an elected president so. So that was Nixon's gift and the and the first. Carter Ford debate was in Philadelphia and that was when the famous 17 19 19 thought how could I think of the 18 admitting Yeah I say what. And they just stood there like toy soldiers you know and not. And this is the beginning of Spin Alley which is a wretched institution with 600 out-of-work political consultants trying to get air time. And but but in the in in the crowded field over that time was you're Gene McCarthy you would run for president kept on running all the time. One of the reporters asked him So what did you think of the 19 minute gap. He said Yeah I really didn't notice. I'm a tad and I'm interested in your comments but I also wanted to ask you it whether that night or in that period

you and or the senator had any sense that national politics was never going to be the same because of what was happening. While there are so many things I want to say I'll try to say them very quickly I want to answer the second question that didn't get answered from the first questioner. If Nixon and if Nixon had won the election and was president in October 1962 when the Soviet Union put nuclear missiles in Cuba. He would have accepted the advice of the Joint Chiefs and none of us would be here right now. Number two style no. It's true that presidents as a rule don't make decisions sitting by themselves with cells without advisors without being allowed notes and they have two and a half minutes to decide and a four minute closing. No that's not that's not really a great task. The real debate between Lincoln and

Douglas I think testing the judgment of the two candidates a lot more. Nevertheless style is what Kennedy uses to rally the country and the rally the world behind us even get some congressional support for his program for Congress and then dominated by GOP Dixiecrat coalition. So let's not rule out style. Thank you and thank you. I guess this would be with Tommy and Marty. In 1958 then Senator Kennedy came through Holbrook which is a small town right next to Brockton also in because it's time to. And you know my father was want to present President Kennedy's campaign secretaries when he was running for re-election to the Senate and you know I remember meeting the president that day and then two

years later you know I sat with my family and watched the you know watch the convention and then the divot and then the debate and you know after the debate My father was like really excited. You know I guess I was more excited because I saw someone on TV that I had in that town. But you know you know he got me excited. And I you know I remember watching it with my parents and I was just wondering if both of you you know if you felt really energized even more after that because you know I'm wondering if they sent you maybe a couple more people in California to help you out there. In. The park that we guy maybe Ted remembers this may be rest and Sandy do it their way. The democratic system in those days actually depended on ordinary citizens for money. In the Democratic Party there was a program that lasted through 1960 that was called dollars for Democrats. And

if you went canvassing and you went with a bucket. In addition to writing down who was a strong supporter and or needed help getting to the polls or whatever and the perk from that work in northern San Diego County at the time of the Los Angeles debate which was the third if I'm not mistaken was to go down to San Diego and meet Bob Kennedy. And that made it all worthwhile. You know 17 years old. And no it wouldn't made any difference. Nixon was going to win California not by much but I think I got a chance to see the energy that Ted was talking about that was released because of his performance I'll give you some numbers on this and a little bit but the impact on people as measured after the election was actually very substantial and very much like what you're talking about. Yes Ted we were just saying that California.

Election night or I should say the next night we thought Kennedy had won and thereby won the election. But if the write in vote people were rich enough to Bill. Was always changed to next I'm almost certain. And then we'll try to discuss the impact of all this and put it put it to bed as best we can. Please go ahead look at your book on your counseling to President Kennedy. I wish we could see more of your writing more on the current state of this crazy world of ours in this public political situation we are living with. I'd like you to put on your hat in the future. Let's see the presidential debate of 2012. We have President Obama and Governor what advice would you give Obama for that particular debate. But. First. I have

to. Comment in terms of. Those who say Well Kennedy must have been nervous because an X in is pointed out here. I'll be baited crew and Kremlin so-called kitchen debate. Nixon had more experience but the best comment was the one Kennedy made in the fall campaign after the debates were finally over. When he said in Minnesota of course it's easier to play Harvard after you've played Ohio State and the next and the next. He just debated I had to debate you were over it was gone through. So I was FARs pale and bear in mind what Gail Collins wrote in The New York Times and I long ago. If you're out there in public life. Try to remember that 5 percent of the

population is certifiably insane. Thank you. Thank you Sandy. Berger as H.L. Mencken said. Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people just because of your unique perspective. Someone who became a wry observer of the human scene after having had to cover it did you. I wanted to get you on the record tonight in terms of whether those evenings in the fall of 1960 you sensed that the game was changing for ever and whether on balance it occurred to you that this was a good thing or not. Even make judgments like that. 1961 I was 35 years old thirties

I was a kid I was like Nixon Nixon was having a ball. Sorry to keep stressing this was the game. A friend of mine working for Governor Rockefeller Rockefeller taking Nixon around in his helicopter was. Seen on Long Island the growth of population. And he said absolutely no interest at all. He's worried about. What he can do to get a headline again. Why did you go to China. It makes no sense. Nixon in China. Somebody wrote an opera about it here and then have the last question before I wrap it. Go back to that night and the heights. Yes see.

You haven't even started yet. But did you see this game as being different than the one you would go into High School and College St. I think so because we were coming out of the very boring Eisenhower years I mean it was a sleepy time the silent generation as as college students were called in. And. It's. But I just sense that I don't think even if there weren't a debate this was a momentous occasion I would what Senator Kennedy said in the very first words of the debates where you know this is going to decide whether the world is going to be half slave and half free. I think I believe that and I think everybody did and I even. You know Nixon didn't do badly but he did not have what it took. He did not know how to get the country moving again so. So I think we knew it was going to be a momentous election and it was the momentous debate which which as if I could

do the moderators proud of takes us back to Bill. What have you wrought. Another words you had this night or this campaign another one can. But what changed because of the media strategy for that campaign was that I had two video trucks one in the West and one in the east and we covered countless rallies and would buy time in regional television. It was the basis of our television advertising campaign and we didn't make commercials because they cost too much to put on the networks and we were getting bigger bang for our buck. If he spoke in Illinois buying television stations in Michigan and Pennsylvania and Indiana and we did I would say five in a month

after and we had OK crowds just OK after the debates. Those crowds went crazy. The numbers were nuts. Then we really had a television show in terms of what we were doing which was doing three or four. Rallies regional television all over the state. Believe it or not as we conclude there are some numbers based on research done after the election but support what's been said here. One of them believe it or not in 1960 if you've been watching Mad Men you know this there were focus groups back then. And there was an outfit in New York I believe called Schwerin. Right who used to gather people from the New York metropolitan area and groups sometimes as large as 300 they had people together for all four of the presidential

debates and it turns out that the Kennedy Nixon margin in terms of the perceptions of those people was approximately two to one for the whole series of four debates. Even more interesting wait perhaps Elmo Roper. Giant in the polling industry did the research for CBS after the election was over and he found almost half his very large sample saying. That the debates had played a role in their decision about who to vote for and of that half. There was a noticeable plurality for Senator Kennedy but there was one little sliver of his sample 6 percent roughly 4 million people who said the debates were everything. This was what they based their vote. And in that group Kennedy was ahead by 4 to 1 if you do the math. He won by a hundred 12000 popular votes. There's the margin and the

ministers conference where the two giant pillars the two ministerial association. There was a number 12. He had to face the Catholic issue goes to Houston he's getting dressed puts on his blue suit can't find his black shoes he says to Dave Powers is a wear my black shoes he said Senator I think I forgot them. We were at the Cuyahoga County ox roast yesterday. So Kennedy puts on his brown shoes goes down rates. Dave Powers things over he comes. Great performance gets by the elevator goes after de powers. Dave funny exasperated says Senator I'm sorry it'll never happen again but I got to tell you that was a brown shoe crowd if ever I saw you. And I guess part of the lesson tonight is that Bill Wilson. Also knew that. And it had something to do with the event. You know one of the things

I hate about this job is it comes on me to call it quits. So tonight I just wanted to try to be like four old heroes of mine Howard K. Smith Frank McGee Quincy how. And Bill should tell. The moderators of the four debates and just say thank you very much for watching and good night.