Speaking of Rochester; 126; Eastman House

How do you do ladies and gentlemen. I'm Barber Conable and this program called "Speaking of Rochester", is a an exploration of Rochester's past its present and to some degree its future. We like to talk about issues that are very important here in Rochester. One personality that's always been central in the history of Rochester is George Eastman. And I'm very happy today to welcome him as a guest on the program Betsy Brayer who is a biographer of George Eastman. We're at the Eastman House on East Avenue. Eastman home is of course a magnificent mansion. But it's also full of touches of the man himself. And Mrs. Brayer is an expert of course having written a 600 page biography of George Eastman. The personality of the man and welcome to the program Betsy yes it is a pleasure to have you [guest] Thank you join us to talk about this very important central figure in Rochester.

Everything seems to have sprung from George Eastman here in Rochester. And so he's a tremendously important personality. Many people don't know a lot about him. And here in his home. We'll be able to get a glimpse I think that will be very instructive for the listeners to the program. [guest] Yes I certainly hope so. [host] Now um that I think most people know some of the basic facts about George Eastman that he was born in Waterville not in Rochester [guest] Right [host]and that he kept his family moved here in 1860, [guest] 1860, yes. [host] And that he had uh for awhile as a small boy without much education. [guest] No. [host] A uh series of menial jobs. [guest] mmhmm [host] but that his great interest in photography led him to start experimenting in photography at a time when it was just a, a kind of a hobby for people uh daguerreotypes were around for uh probably 30 years for 40 years before uh he uh

had started experimenting himself. We all know that uh that I think that that photography evolved under his uh uh management into uh something that could be a family a archive sort of of a hobby. [guest] That's right. Anybody could take a photograph after Easman came along [host] Before that they put photographic emulsions on glass [guest] In the field [host] it was very difficult to handle. [guest] yes [host] and the glass broke [guest] mm-hmm [host] and the emulsions were not always proper and and he moved it onto a film a flexible film that could be rolled up. [guest] That's right. [host] And that meant that anybody could take a picture with the the the great slogan was a, "You push the button and we'll do the rest."[laughs] [guest] That's right. Well that created a great industry here and it's been central in the welfare of Rochesterians [guest] hm mm. [host] in many ways since that time. Now when was this house built [guest] This house was uh Eastman bought the

property here on East Avenue in 1902 it was a farm. The last farm along East Avenue. 8 and a half acres. And he he a he built the house a beginning in 1903 and moved in in June of 1905. [host] By then he was a very wealthy man wasnt he? [guest] Yes he, well uh 1898 we usually date the time that he decided he was a millionaire.[Host laughs] He had made [host] A millionaire back then was something considerably more important than it is now.[guest important [guest] That's right, yes of probably be is like a billionaire is today.[Host] Yeah. [host] And and so at that time he decided that it was his lifestyle would support a mansion of this sort. [guest] Yes, well with this million dollars interestingly enough he divided it almost in three parts. He took one third and gave it to Mechanics Institute for a new building, that's now RIT [host] that's RIT. [guest]That was a philanthropic gift; he took another third divide gave it to a his employees

worldwide as the first [indistinct] [host] starting a practice that has followed ever since hasn't it? [guest] and took another third $300,000 and built this house for himself and his mother, who lived here for the last two years of her life. [host] But of course that wasn't the be all and the end all of his wealth as you know continuing to accumulate it [Guest] That's right.[Host]and this this great company grew. [guest] Yes, yes. It it took how long to build [guest] the house? [host]Yes. Yes.[Guest] Well, uh it took about two and a half years [Host] an I an I suppose he upgraded it from time to time a after that changed a [guest] He enlarged it he was always changing the interior. He didn't uh do too much to the house itself he would add greenhouses and different gardens as we went along and outbuildings, but not too much [host] Did he keep the whole eight and half acres? [guest] Yes he added to that too he bought the lot next door where you now see the West garden in 1916 So that made it ten and a half acres at that point. [host] Well it's a good thing he did because of course you've added the the

buildings have been added here to house the great collections.[Guest] Buildings have been added [Host] Historically collections of photography that are here. [guest] Yes and film. Motion pictures. [host] well now Betsy, this obviously is the place of a learned man; he may not have been the highly educated, but he liked to read didn't he? [guest] Oh he loved to read. [host] This is his library and I guess he must have spent a lot of time here. [guest] He did indeed although he didn't actually put the shelves in for the books until 1927 In the living room there were shelves for books and one of the things he loved to read was the the Encyclopedia Britannica.[Host laughs] [host] Well he's a very precise man and I understand these books are all categorized according to what shelf they're on. [Guest]That's correct. [Host] It's all alphabetical too [guest] Look up at the top here you have O, P Then we start here A,B,C going around [host laughs] and he had a librarian come in and catalog everything and uh

So that he could always find what he was looking for because [host] I never could find anything in my house I don't know about yours [guest] But you maybe don't have a library and the card catalog [host] No I don't. [host] Well a a this is is a good recluse for a reclusive man too.[guest] That's right. And all of his books he had his own picture of himself reading uh a This was his book place [guest] It was a book place, but of course it was a photograph which was [host] of course, that would be appropriate wouldn't it? [guest] And this table here this map table he always like to tell visitors that he shot that table because it is uh a Rhinoceros hide that he indeed a did bring back from one of his African tours [host] He was a hunter and a fisherman [guest] He was a hunter and fisherman all his life. [host] Which was appropriate to his times. I think nowadays people don't do that as much as they used to a. The wealthy [guest] No, fortunately not, but a it uh Actually he had his family his father's family were hunters and fishermen in Waterville his father had about 7 brothers and so he came

by it naturally. [host] Incidentally his house in Waterville has been moved here to the Genesee Country Museum [guest] That's correct yes. [host] And a a nice little Federal period house that that shows that the family was not well to do. [guest] Oh no they were not, but they had an income from the nursery there and from a [Host] Yes.[Guest] the commercial college here [host] It was quite different from this house uh anyway. [guest]Yes indeed. [host] All right well a this is a an interesting point about about the fire was going in the fireplace a lot when he sat in here. [Guest] The fire was going in the fireplace and he had it all all the ashes were neatly raked and uh uh everything was neat and tidy and And uh he often sat before the fire here and read. [Host] Well that's a that's That's an interesting facet of his personality. I'm afraid uh most of us are not that immaculate or well organized [guest] No and the books mostly are a nonfiction he was not a fiction reader he liked a.

[host] Now now next door [Guest] history [Host] is the billiard room [Guest] Yes. [Host]and that was an important room to him also wasn't it? [guest] Indeed that was a [host] And why was it important, did he play a lot of billiards? [guest] He did play a lot of billiards. A and pool too in the early days [Host] So he [Guest] and he always had a billiard table even before he built this house [host] So he was not unathletic he not only hunted and fished, but he played billiards. [Guest] He played billiards, yes.[host] Well let's take a look at that [guest] All right fine. [host] This is the so-called billiard room a here. I think Betsy. [guest] Yes it is. [host] Um. It is a poor table though. What happened to the original billiard uh table? [guest] Well the original billiard table went up stairs here in 1907 and then in World War I, in 1918, Kodak had a aeronautical school at Kodak Park and Eastman donated his billiard table to the sort of a USO group there. And then after the w war that table went to the Maplewood Branch of the YMCA and

we were not able to find that original table [host] So this is a substitute [guest] So this is a substitute but it came from an East Avenue house. It was made in 1906. So it is. It is vintage, but actually Eastman's billiard table he designed himself. And he had a the architect of this room use the a these palasters on the side of the a fireplace here a copy those for the legs so that it looked like it belonged in this room. [host] He got into every detail of this house didn't he? [guest] He certainly did. Yes [host] It was. It was a fascinating man from that point of view. He didn't say to an interior decorator here do this [Guest] No,[Host] he did it all himself. [Guest] No. He bugged the interior decorator until the interior decorator did it the way he wanted it. [Host] And it was all uh [host] His tastes reflected here and not anybody else's [guest] Simplicity, Colonial things he liked. Of course, it's all it's all reproduction furniture, but it's from the Colonial Revival era.

[host]That raises an interesting question. A Obviously his family was important to him, but he never got married. [guest] No. [host] He was interested in women wasn't he? [Guest] He had uh many friendships with women. [host] uh huh [guest] He surrounded himself with beautiful intelligent women. [host] But apparently he thought that his business a was something to which he was wedded. And he didn't [Guest] Right. [Host]want to lose the independence that would would a he had as a bachelor. Is that right? [guest] That's what he always said when people would suggest that he perhaps should marry a a for instance, Josephine Dickman the widow of his London manager, he would say, "Oh you people are always trying to take away my independence."[Host laughs] And he said one time that he was simply too busy to think about marriage until he had reached the age where then he thought, well all these women are really interested in is my money so um [host] A But that's [guest] But he may have been saying that tongue in cheek [host]Many men I am

afraid wedded to their businesses. Don't think of of uh the fact that uh a wife is is some somebody that you've got to nurture and and spend a lot of time with And apparently he had had thought that all himself [guest] He did and he also felt that perhaps it was a fortunate thing that he didn't have children because he felt they would have been spoiled by the uh the huge wealth that he had accumulated. [host] Well I think that's a probably a possibility. [guest] Sometimes it works that way [host] Huge wealth has a huge liability [Guest] Yes. [Host] in the family. [Guest] That's right. [Host] Well this shows a this room shows again his love of woodwork. A and uh the tremendous amount of care that went into the designing of the room. [guest] Yes the medallions you see in the windows are. The history of transportation. [Host coughs]. [Guest] Designed by Francis Henry Bacon his a designer for this for this room and this was where he would entertain

his close friends on Wednesday evenings. He would have formal dinners for from 12 to 20 friends, and they would have cocktails in here uh before dinner [host] and apparently played a lot of billiards [guest] Ah probably did, yes [Host] That's good. [host] All right well let's move on, shall we? [guest] Yes. [music]

[music] [music] [host] The business grew after he made his original

contribution to uh his employees and and uh split up his original fortune in 1898. [guest] Right. Well you know that was about the time that motion pictures were coming along [host] Ah that would have made a big difference. [Guest] That made a big difference. He could not only sell film for still cameras for the Kodak camera, the Brownie camera, but he had miles and miles of film that could go go into motion pictures [host] think how much more film a motion picture camera uses [guest] absolutely [host] than a still camera.[Guest] Yeah. [Host]And so that was the beginning of the great expansion [guest] that was very fortuitous yes [host] Yes and did he do a good deal of inventing in the in the a in the Motion Picture field [guest] No, he did not. [host] He uh he used [Guest] No, he stuck to to filmmaking really. [host] hm hm [guest] He did not. Not he, but his camera people, such as Frank Brownell would work on the cameras after the first original Kodak camera.

[host] Ah But the but they they had, the pioneering work had been done by others. And as long as and he was producing film, as a matter of fact he always considered himself a film producer and not a camera producer [guest] Oh sure yeah [host] Although they did make a lot of cameras the cameras were there to encourage the use of film. [guest] Absolutely, it's like a razor and blades; [Host laughs] you give away the razor. But you can sell the blades. [host] Ah Yes [guest] He almost gave away the Brownie camera for a dollar. But just think of how how many rolls of film it took for [host] Think of how many Eastman Kodak cameras there have been. A and so that was an important part of his business even though it was not the end goal [Guest] No. [Host] The end goal was to sell film [guest] and he would change the models every year, so that there would be a new model. And then there were folding pocket cameras and panoramic cameras and ah [host] Then really he was a marketer almost more than a than an inventor wasn't he? [guest] He was that all of those things combined. Yes. [host] And despite the fact that he didn't do a lot of inventive work on motion picture

cameras, you have a tremendous collection of motion picture films here.[Guest] Oh yes.[Host] And we also have uh technology - - what you call the collection of cameras [guest] of cameras Yes. [host] And so this is a fascinating place to go if you are going to do a a history of film. A You'd be well advised to come first to the Eastman House wouldn't you? [guest] I understand that [host] from all from all over the world [guest] all over the world yes. Largest collection of motion picture film probably in the world perhaps the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris has more, but pretty close. [host] Betsy, I just want to spend a moment here before we look at the rest of the house to understand. Um a What uh uh the overall uh number of visitors to the house is. And and I I don't know if you have that information, or not, but they must be coming from all over the world [guest] They're definitely coming from all over the

world. [host] A you have it you have a big staff here good to handle the collections. About 100 most of which are working with the film and photographic collections and and uh the apparatus. Only about 14 of those are actually in the Eastman House building. [host] Now how is that supported? It must be very expensive to have a staff of a hundred. It's you you raise money annually, do you? [guest] Well yes there's a very active membership department here, development department we rely on corporate gifts, on individual gifts, and And we are uh currently building a 10 million dollar house and garden endowment which will take care of that keeping this house [host] keeping the house in good shape. Did the house some after his death? death? But when he die? [guest] He died in 1932 and the house went to the University of Rochester [Host] Hm mm.[Guest] for the use of the presidents for the next at least 10 years.

And actually the presidents lived here for 15 years, 'til 1947. And then uh they moved elsewhere and the house became a museum in 1949, this is the 50th anniversary 1999 is the 50th anniversary. [host] But there must have been a lot of investment in maintaining a house in the meantime and and [guest] Not as much as there should have been. [host] haha that's always the case. [guest] by 1980 it was pretty shabby in here, pretty shabby.[host] I'm on the Smithsonian board of regents, uh it takes a lot of a lot of money to maintain all those museum buildings so I can imag [Guest] Right. [Host] I can imagine that a magnificent establishment like this would cost a lot too. Now I understand there are a group of women who are responsible for upgrading the condition of this building. [guest] That's correct [host] here in Rochester [guest]in the early 1980s, Mrs Thomas Gosnell, Georgia Cosnell who is a member of the board here. Said This place needs a good refurbishing and uh restoration. And she spearheaded uh

a committee which really got into it. Uh we hired William Seale a nationally known Restorationist to oversee the restoration so that it is completely a authentic when we couldn't [host] So the idea was not to change it, but to put it back the way[Guest] to put it back exactly the way it was [Host] as George Eastman had wanted it to be be. [Guest] Right down to for instance, this uh uh Oriental rug that you're standing on. Uh we took a photograph of the hall as it was and had this uh woven specially for us in Hong Kong. [host] Uh there are many beautiful paintings here uh many are I understand it mostly photographic reproductions [Guest] Mostly.[Host]because the paintings were given to the University of Rochester. [Guest]That's correct. 55 of those are now at the Memorial Art Gallery. But these are life size uh reproductions, photographic reproductions here. Betsy, we're now in uh what's called the parlor, I guess, or the living room [Guest] living room. Yes.[Host] It's a big room. Uh it obviously it will hold a lot of people.

How many did they used to get in here for the musicals that George Eastman had? [Guest]Sunday evening they'd have 125. [Host] I don't know how they got a 125 25 in here, but it is a big room. [guest] Well, on at least that was who was invited every week. [Host] Ah. [Guest] Out of a revolving list of 1500, and of course it was a command performance. Uh Kodak people were invited, University people were invited, friends, And it wasn't easy to say no to Mr. Eastman and they sat on uh canvas chairs [Host] He knew who had come and who hadn't, is that it? [Guest] I think he did. did. Yes [Host] Yes [laughs] [Guest] Although there was a sign in the coat room that said please do not say good night to Mr. Eastman. He did not want to shake their hands as they left. They came for the music. They came for supper of uh corned beef hash and pitchers of prohibition beer. And then they after the music the Kilbourn Quartet would play, and perhaps a soloist on the piano, or a vocalist. And then they were to leave.

[Host]I I suspect this room was also used for a lot of community meetings where [Guest] a lot of [Host] the structure of Rochester's uh Philanthropy was pretty well designed by George Eastman. [Guest]Yes the institutions of Rochester had many of them had their birth here. [Host] He was uh he was credited with being one of the pioneers of the uh United Way movement. [Guest] Yes. [Host] Can you tell us a little something about that? [Guest]Well, he was asked to head up the war chest during World War I. And at the end of that, he transformed the war chest into the country's first Community Chest. [host] Although the communities that that's what the United Way used to be known as [Guest]And then at some later date, [Host] Did he call give it the name community chest [Guest] That's what the legend has that he gave it the name and uh also its slogan. So [host] of course Rochester is still one of the most successful United Ways in the nation. [Guest]Yes. [Host] If not the most successful largely because of the strong tradition of giving in this this philanthropically oriented town.

[Guest] Right and it did start really with Eastman and his uh contemporaries. [Host]Well there were so many things of that sort that George Eastman laid his hand on - not just the Eastman Theatre and uh and the university [Guest] Right. [Host] Uh but uh but [Guest] all the hospitals in the community, for instance, he gave a nurse's home for Genesee hospital, a nurse's home for Highland Hospital in memory of his mother. Uh He was the largest contributor to the enlargement of City Hospital which is now Rochester General. And of course he gave a third for a Strong Memorial Hospital in memory of his partner Henry Alva Strong. [host] He attracted a lot of very strong people here too uh. People like Marion Folsom for instance [guest] Yes. He personally hired Marion Folsom out of Harvard Business School in 1914. He wanted the young statistician statistician and a asked a him to come and become that.

[host] Marion was an institutional pioneer too; he a was secretary of HEW at 1 point. And I personally from my own experience know that he contributed a great deal to making Rochester into a medical laboratory for the nation. [Guest] Hm mm. [host] So again, Eastman's hand was present there in in having brought that interesting man to this community and I'm sure uh so many of Rochester's businesses had their origins other than the skills of Kodak employees who came here to work for George Eastman, and and and were able, liked the community and stayed and and became uh leaders of their own businesses in [Guest]Yeah [Host] In due course. [Guest]But one of Eastman's goals was to make Rochester the best community in the country in which to live and raise a family. And, of course, he was primarily thinking of Kodak people, but it it really helped everyone else too. [Host]That certainly has. I we've you've Betsy Brayer you've

taken us around the the uh Eastman House here and given us uh a human human picture of the man himself. Uh there are lots of contradictions. See he never married, but he was obviously gregarious. [guest] Yes [host]He liked people; he liked uh female companionship. [Guest] hm mm. Uh he was a very precise man and a yet he didn't look at money as something of interest in itself. He saw it as a a means to uh an end in the [guest] yes [host]community and in the country at large and was extremely generous with it. Obviously, feeling that uh that uh his money could be used to a very good creative purpose. Uh it it's been a fascinating uh side of him that we've had here in the environment he himself created. He was a creative man too and

not just inventive [guest] Very much so [Guest] Innovative, hm hm [Host] But uh but uh it's been it's been a pretty interesting view I think of something that Rochester should be very proud of. George Eastman to some extent you could say put Rochester on the map. And uh and uh people interested in this community have got to understand one of the the important origins of the community's character was the brain of of George Eastman. [Guest]Yes. Indeed it would be hard to imagine what Rochester would be today if he had never lived here. [Host] hm mm. [host] He a killed himself at the end of his life. [guest] Yes [host] He had an incurable disease and and apparently felt that a he had done his work [guest] His works was done [Guest] dying yeah. [Host] His last words he spoke were, "My work is done why wait?" [Guest]That that was his suicide note that's correct. [host] Yes yes yes. And uh and uh I think the very

humanity of the man explains a good deal of of the strength of Rochester. Well thank you very much for being with us. Ladies and gentlemen our guest has been Betsy Brayer who wrote a 600 page biography of George Eastman and knows more about him than anybody else alive probably. It's been a great pleasure having you Betsy and thank you for being with us on this "Speaking of Rochester". This is Barber Conable thank you for being. listening.[music] If you'd like a copy of this program. send $19.95 to WXXI post Office Box 21, Rochester, New York 1 4 6 0 1.