The Exchange; Interview with Howard Dean

From New Hampshire Public Radio I'm Laura Conaway and this is the exchange. Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean is with us today Doctor and former Vermont Governor Dean one of nine Democrats vying for his party's nomination. And as we've done with all the candidates so far we're putting the issues aside just for now and getting to know Howard Dean the Third what drives him and the life experiences that shape his political beliefs. For example did you know that Howard Dean's favorite movie is Bulworth that his first political project in Vermont was getting a bike path built and that this successful doctor governor and now presidential candidate still flies on Southwest Airlines drives a rusted Chevy Blazer. And on the campaign trail avoids glitzy hotels preferring to spend the night at supporters houses or in New York with his mom. Did any exchange issues aside what do you want to know about Howard Dean the person as he runs for the nation's highest office. Join us 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 1 800

8 and HPR and Howard it's great to meet you. Thanks for coming in. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. And we actually spoke a couple of times when you were governor of Vermont. Right. Just about Vermont Public Radio gets into Vermont right. Right. Well welcome. Well when you were a kid did you want to grow up to be a doctor did you want to grow up to be president. Neither. Neither. I mean I didn't know what I wanted to do to grow up to be. I knew I wanted to do something to make the world a better place. But I never really thought about either of them. I I ended up in medical school in part because I was on Wall Street and not happy living in New York and not particularly happy on Wall Street although it was intellectually terrifically challenging and I learned an enormous amount. So I went to night school to get all the science courses I didn't take when I was in college and then worked in an emergency room at night to see if I could stand all the blood and gore of being a physician and I could and I liked it. And I went to medical school in New York and then came to Vermont. And what were you doing on Wall Street. I was doing three things. I was a trainee which meant I was apprenticed to a guy who was a trucking and railroad analyst.

Then I was a stockbroker and I wasn't making any money because it was in the middle of the 74 recession. And then I ended up as the assistant to the manager of a small mutual fund that I really learned a lot about managing money. Bonds interest rates credit contributed to being making me a fiscal conservative. Well you know it makes sense that you would at least start out in that area because you came from a long line of investment banks. My my father grandfather and great grandfather were all in that business. And so I sort of took the path of least resistance after I got out of college. You grew up on Park Avenue. Very nice elite area of New York as you know when I think Park Avenue nice place in New York City stockbrokers I think Republicans were your family Republican. My mother just switched the registration to Democrat for the first time ever. My father was a Republican all his life but we actually you know even though I sort of grew up in New York and went to school with the eighth grade there my legal residence was always eastern Long Island my family goes back about 300 years in a place called Sag Harbor. There were whaling captains

and then my great great grandfather came over from France without a dime in his pocket the usual immigrant story. But he built a very successful career. And so our roots are really in Long Island the only two places I've ever voted are Easthampton Long Island and Vermont. So how did you go to become a. Many people would say a progressive or liberal Democrat from this family of you know Wall Street Republicans. I think the civil rights era and the Vietnam War era had something to do with it. I also think that what I what I really am as a fiscal conservative and a social progressive I believe in things like health care for all Americans. I believe that we ought to have investment in small children and their families so that we can stop this ridiculous path we're on of sending more people to prison every year and less people to college. And in order to do that you've got to have some social programs that make some sense you don't have to spend a lot of money. I was a tightwad the whole time I was the governor of Vermont and we're in much better fiscal shape than

almost every other state because of that. But the reason you want to be a tightwad is to protect our ability to have social programs that are viable and make a difference in the future. You mentioned what sort of turned you from your Republican roots to becoming a Democrat you mentioned the civil rights movement and the Vietnam War. Now as I understand you didn't serve in Vietnam right. No. I had a back problem which became which surfaced during the during my junior year in high school and I was classified one why when I went for my draft which means that I could serve only in terms of national emergency. And you brother brother said Yeah well he was not he was a civilian. He was captured and ultimately killed by the Lao in Laos about 25 years ago. He was a civilian was he a journalist or no we believe he was just going around the world with a friend of his. He'd lived in Laos for some time with a friend or near a friend of my father's who was in USAID there's a lot of speculation about why he was classified as I say but we really don't know the answer to that have that experience with your brother and also your own

experience during the Vietnam War shape your views on war. Today I think no president no one should run for president unless they're fully willing to commit the resources of the United States military to our defense. But I know that when you go to war you are going to deprive families of loved ones either fathers of small children or so and that is a very serious obligation to send people to war. I don't think for example the president made the case in Iraq. That's why I'm the only candidate of the four. Senator Lieberman Senator Kerry Senator Edwards and Representative Gephardt that did not support the Iraq war because I simply did not believe that that was justified. I did support the attack on Afghanistan because I felt that 3000 of our people had been killed that al Qaeda was an imminent threat to the United States as it still is and that we had every right to defend ourselves and remove the government of Afghanistan. So I probably take a more judicious view about force than some of my competitors for the Democratic

nomination. I want to just ask one more question about your parents. Were they religious. My father was fairly religious he used to go to church. And my mother is now actually quite religious. My father is a Protestant Episcopalian or was my mother's a Catholic. She goes to church often almost every day. My father used to go to church regularly and take us along with him every Sunday and we went to all went to a prep school which was a church affiliated we went to church literally every day and twice on Sunday. Wow. So are you religious today. I'm religious but not. I don't often go to church or my wife's Jewish so sometimes we used to go to temple once in a while and we don't do much of either. We get we celebrate Christmas and Easter in the high holy days it's sort of an ecumenical family but we don't do a lot of church going and Temple going. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 is our phone number here in the exchange. I'm Laura Conroy. And today in exchange Howard Dean is here. He's one of nine Democrats running in New Hampshire's presidential primary. He's a doctor and was governor of Vermont for 11 years and

today since it's our first interview with Dr. Dean we're focusing less on specific issues and more on who he is his background and why he thinks the way he does. Join us 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 1 800 8 9 2 and HPR. I want to just turn to your early family life to coming to Vermont. You came here as you said for your medical residency. How do you get into politics. Well I was always a big fan of Jimmy Carter's. And when he ran in 1976 I was in medical schools when much I could do about it. But in 1980 I saw an article in a local paper in Burlington that said that he was going to be a campaign kickoff in December of 79 for his re-election. So I looked up the woman who was chairing his campaign who turned out to be a state senator named Esther Sorrell and she turned out to live $5 down from me. So I called her up and was soon recruited to be licking envelopes and all that kind of thing to do and campaigns

and she and her sister Peg Hartigan who ended up as my campaign writer for years before she passed away a few years ago really indoctrinated me into politics. They were the kind of the people who were responsible for the reemergence of the Democratic Party. We had not had a Democratic governor in Vermont for 109 consecutive years which surprises people because they think of Vermont as a very liberal state. Well they do. That's because Ben and Jerry's which has been great the branding of the state the politics is a little different than Jerry's even though they're great people. But in any case. So they really taught me everything I know about Vermont politics. They had rebuilt the party in part so that since 1962 we've alternated governors Democrat Republican Democrat Republican. And they knew everybody and they worked hard in the Carter campaign they got me into a position where I ended up going to the national convention as a delegate. And then I came and I you know I I the Carter people were older and they were sort of the party establishment. I was only 30 at the time.

And so the Kennedy people were younger. That was the 1980 Kennedy versus Carter primary so I voted all day with the Carter people and party all night with Ken when I got back to when I get back to Vermont the chair of the gin and county party which is the biggest county in the state was very ill and needed to resign. So she and the state chair said well you've got to be the chair. And I said well I can't do that I hardly know anybody. And they said Well for some reason we don't understand you are the only person I can get along with the Carter people and the you have to do it. And so I did. And that's really gotten me into politics. I did that for a couple of years and then I ran for the legislature and I want to talk about your time in the legislature. But what was it about Jimmy Carter that made you want to work for him. I always thought he was a very ethical person. And I think history has shown that he is. He said what he thought. He wasn't always the most forceful person but I admired him enormously. I admired his instincts I admired his fairness in treating people he he was one of the people who you know there are a lot of people who tell everybody how

Christian they are. He really was one who acted that out his he was the kind of Christian that I admire which is the person who you know love your neighbor as thyself. And I just thought you know there was everything about him that I disliked a straightforward decent fact based. You had some scientific background which I had. And so I just liked him. Who else do you admire in terms of precedents. The two top presidents in my estimation having the most impact are George Washington and and then and Franklin Roosevelt but the ones I admire the most are George Washington and Harry Truman. I admire George Washington because he had an enormous impact on the evolution of the rule of law. He because of the time that he turned down a tidal wave and or a third term. He really was the first person I think to consistently establish that the office was more important than the person who held it and that her enormous effect given at the time it happened to the evolution of the rule of law in the West. Harry Truman I

enormously admire because I thought he made the toughest decisions with the least regard for polls of any president in modern time ever probably. He just did what he thought was right and that was that the two decisions I admire the most that Harry Truman made on a long series of very tough decisions were decisions to integrate the armed forces in 1948 was for a Missourian to do that. That was a very unpopular decision in the north and the south and the other decision which I thought was enormously courageous was his recall of General Douglas MacArthur very unpopular at the time. Clearly necessary to reaffirm the supremacy of the civilian rule over over the military which is one of the cornerstones of why America is a great country. You know what's interesting about those two that you picked is that both of them from what I have read and then a fair amount of reading on President both of them were also known as blunt plain spoken and not really caring about. I mean they have to care about what people think. But you know what I'm

getting at. I wonder if that's also what you admire about them is that they were people who just said what they thought weren't the ultimate polished candidate. You were talking about Washington Washington too right. That's right. And Truman was there was a tremendous statesman. I mean the reason he was chosen to be essentially the leader of both the Armed Forces and during the revolution and ultimately the first president was because he was the consensus candidate who commanded enormous respect. He was a shy retiring relatively retiring person. He was a backwoodsmen who did the same. Well he wasn't exactly a backwoodsman. I mean he was a plantation owner and a slave on that too and had accumulated some means although he certainly wasn't vastly wealthy. But he did. He was a statesman a real estate a genuine statesman he was not a politician. And there's a lot of that I admire as well. Getting back to Jimmy Carter for just a moment why do you think he lost. Well it's a couple of reasons. First of all he wasn't forceful enough.

But there was some bad breaks. I mean the Iranians did everything they could to get them out by holding the hostages. We were in the middle of the Arab oil partly Arab oil induced recession energy crisis and so forth. We had a lot of things that happened that weren't good and partly that he wasn't forceful enough and taking the bull by the horns I think. What do you draw from both the Jimmy Carter from Jimmy Carter and also Harry Truman for your own presidential campaign. Very fact based argument for the campaign just for yourself here. Oh I admire Carter enormously for how he won that nomination. It was just persistence. I've actually talked to him about he's a wonderful human being. I've talked to him a few times since I started doing this he's supporting him. I think he would not want to get involved in the presidential race. But he's a very very smart person. He must be close to 80 now and he's just he's got all his marbles he's just a delightful human being. And he told me that the most important thing

that he did other than getting out really early was just being persistent. Not a day went by where he just was insistent that he was going to win and just never gave up. I admire that enormously and it seems like you're following that. Well certainly that was a terrific role model for that. What was the second question. You know what you draw from him for your own presidential campaign or your own presidency if you believe that. Well first of all Truman came back against huge odds in 1948 right. But the thing about Truman that was so inspiring is that Truman really did what he thought he had to do for the future of the country. That was terrific. I mean I'm sure there was some political stuff. Nobody's ever been a politician without doing something political. He did plenty of things that were political but he really was a pretty remarkable person who had a much bigger impact on history both worldwide and and in America that most people give them credit for some of his decisions are controversial the decision to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So his

decisions are maybe were political and maybe weren't the first person to recognize his first country to recognize Israel and give it and give it legitimacy of the world as it were as the preeminent power in the world which we were and are still are some of his decisions were just plain gutsy and there was no political benefit whatsoever in the two that I cited the MacArthur recall and the integration of the armed forces couldn't be looked at in any other way than just plain absolute commitment to doing the right thing regardless of the political consequences. Let's go to the phones 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 1 800 8 9 2 HPR. I'm Laura. Can I live. This is the exchange on an HPR. And today we're talking with Howard Dean. He is one of nine Democrats running in New Hampshire's presidential primary. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 is the number to join us. Let's go first to Manchester. Jeannie joins us from there. Jenny excuse me Jenny go ahead you're on the air. Hi. I'm not supportive Dean but I'm just kind of concerned that

his latest upbringing is going to label him as being out of touch with regular citizens. I don't know. I was wondering what he thinks about that. Well Jenny can I ask you a question if you're worried about that why why are you supporting him. You know I'm just stunned. You know I went in you know in order to get someone who can beat Bush I don't want people doing you know the kind of attack. I just don't know how he's going to be able to come back and tell people to respond to that line of attack if it occurs. OK Jenny. Well it depends who it occurs from. Some of my opponents on the Democratic side have an even more elitist upbringing than I do and the occupant of the White House certainly has a more lenient upbringing than I do. So it's going to be hard for people to attack me based on my background or my experience. People really don't care about your background. They use it against you if they don't like you to begin with in which case it doesn't make much difference. But what people really want to know is can you connect with voters yesterday in Portsmouth. We had between 600 to 700 people come out to hear what I had to say.

There's not been a crowd like that generated in New Hampshire certainly not by me or I don't think anybody else in a long long time and certainly not in this election cycle. My my personal experience is that I am very comfortable with almost everybody. I've got a lot of experience with just about every kind of person you can think of. I've been in situations where I'm the minority among African-American groups. I went to an Orthodox Jewish Medical School where I was a minority among Orthodox and Reform Jews. So I've lived. I was actually I worked when I was 16 years old on a ranch in Florida with three other 16 and 15 year olds in a place where everybody else was a Cuban exile and didn't speak English for the most part. So I've lived in a lot of different situations where I wasn't the majority. And I see three things through the eyes of others a little bit more easily than you might if you didn't have those kinds of experience. I've lived abroad I've been in 50 countries but you live abroad in

England. I've got an exchange scholarship after I left high school. How was that. It was very interesting. I went to an English prep school which I wouldn't perhaps recommend. Why not. Because it was about out of the 16 hundreds. But I got to travel I went to North Africa I went. We drove a bunch of us drove got a Landrover and drove to Turkey through the iron curtain countries. So it's true that I have a somewhat elitist background. You know I went to private schools not public schools although my kids have always gone to public education public schools because I think public education in this country has been terrific. But I think it's who you are that counts not what your background is and I don't worry very much about people attacking me for my background because others are so much more vulnerable than I to Henoch are now. And Aaron Aaron good morning you're on the Exchange. Good morning. Good morning Governor. Hi governor. I heard that you spent a lot of time in Israel and Palestine working and speaking to people on both sides in the occupied territories and in Israel and I was wondering how would you know on the first hand experience from your past influence your policy on the Mideast peace process.

Well I would say I spent a lot of time in Israel and Palestine I spent a little but I have talked to a lot of people on both sides including people in the government on both sides. Here's my observations about the Middle East. First that the majority of people on both sides of the Green Line want peace and would happily settle for a two state solution if they could guarantee the security of both states. Secondly that the Palestinians have assets that are often overlooked in the West. That is they have a very high percentage of university education or at least they did before the second intifada Palestinian women play a greater role and government than any in any other Arab society that more Palestinians have extensive experience with democracy than any other Arab society because they have lived in the United States or Europe or because a million Israeli Arabs live in a democracy for 50 years. And because the people who live in the West Bank live right next door to a vibrant democracy and hear all kinds of different points of view coming across so there some real assets I believe. I'm an optimist about Middle East peace. I think the the

problem are the 15 percent of people on both sides who don't want peace who think that the ultimate solution is that they get everything the other people have which is not the right solution. I actually have some compliments for President Bush here I think he erred terribly by ignoring this situation for two and a half years which was unprecedented in six consecutive American administrations. But now he does appear to be involved and it's very very important we are not going to get to peace in the Mideast before and unless America is fully involved. The other side which does not reflect well on President Bush is we're not going to get to peace unless we stop the terror. It's impossible to get the Israelis out of the West Bank if three days later a bomb goes off and kills 30 children in a bar mitzvah. And that terror is funded in part by our oil money and since the president has no renewable energy policy of any kind. And since he's unwilling to confront the Saudis and others about their role in funding terror and funding the teaching of small children to hate Americans Christians and Jews then until we have an oil policy in this country that can start to turn off the spigot of American oil money going to the Middle East then we're going it's

going to be very difficult to get peace in the Middle East so I think the president first of all I'd reduce our dependence on foreign oil which I think is essential to peace. And of course greenhouse gas production and global warming reduction. Secondly I maintain intense involvement on both sides with the goal towards a two state solution which I think is the ultimate way to resolve this incredibly difficult problem. You said your wife is Jewish. Does she have similar feelings to you on this. I think so. I mean certainly we're very sympathetic to people I think on both sides that the Israelis are psychologically devastated by the terror because they don't know if their children are going to come home at night. The Palestinians are economically completely devastated. Eighty percent of the people are living below the poverty line. We want peace in the Middle East. And the only way to get peace in the Middle East is for both sides to make the kinds of concessions that have to be made which ultimately means dismantling of the vast majority of the settlements and with the guarantee that the terror is absolutely stopped and that Israel is not being attacked by terrorists

and that's that's what has to happen. Coming up more of your questions for Howard Dean. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 1 800 8 to HPR. This is the exchange on. More with presidential candidate Howard Dean coming up in just a minute on the exchange on New Hampshire Public Radio. And coming up at 10:00 on the Diane Rehm Show what's ahead for Iraq now that Saddam's sons are dead. It's 9:30. Good morning I'm Dan Cogan had an HPR we get support from our contributing listeners and support also comes from golf and ski warehouse stores in West Lebanon Greenline and Hudson New Hampshire. And on the web a golf and

ski warehouse dot com from the old Smithey shop of Brookline specializing in historic Handels and henges by New England master blacksmith Franklin Horsley online at old Smithy's shop dot com and from the New Hampshire school administrators Association educational leaders recruiting individuals to serve children and communities online at E-D jobs and a dot.com. This is an HPR. This is the exchange. I'm Laura Conaway. Tomorrow on the exchange an African minister talks about healing in African hotspots like Liberia. That's Thursday an exchange right now. We're talking with Howard Dean. He's one of nine Democrats running in New Hampshire's presidential primary. He's a doctor and was governor of Vermont for 11 years. It's our first interview with Dr. Dean so we're focusing less on specific issues and more on just who he is his background why he thinks the way he does. Join us 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7

7 What's one thing you'd like to know about Howard Dean as a person. What qualities do you look for in a president. And I'd love to hear from our Vermont audience today. What do you make of Howard Dean's quest for the presidency. Join us 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 1 800 892 and HPR. And before we go back to the phones in this campaign you've been described as brash and blunt and somebody even called you belligerent. Disagree with that characterization. No I don't really. Although you know I thought about that a lot and I'm hardly ever that way with voters. Hardly ever. Sometimes I am with the press. I am somebody that if you challenge me I'm going to come right back in your face. There's no question about that in the press. That's what the press does is challenge you and ask you tough questions and sometimes many many times. So I probably that's a fair description for a reporter to write but that's not how I relate to ordinary people. OK because I was going to ask you where you think that comes from but do you think that really you. I am combatted of an editorial boards when people are really giving me the you know putting the

pressure on I come right back at them and you know that's what that's what reporters do and that's their job. I'm not dissing reporters. I think if you didn't have reporters like that tough questions would never get answered and reporters are really the the line between politicians who basically run the place without any checks on them whatsoever and a vibrant democracy but that doesn't mean they're not combative then I do tend to be combative back again. And you're smiling so looks like you actually think that's kind of fun. It is. Well sometimes it is. I mean it's not fun being described as brusque Cumberledge. One of my opposing campaign managers the opposing campaign managers said something like I had a it was hard to tell if that was how was competitive or just combative It was something like like a personality flaw or something like that. Now speaking of blunt I read that when you if I am blunt question about that or brash or whatever you want to call it one of your favorite movies is Bulworth. It is. It is. How come. Because I thought I know Warren Beatty is incredibly talented and I thought his characterization of politicians was perfect

because he really brought out all the faults without being preachy. And he was very great. If you haven't seen it you people are describing a little bit for people here. It's basically a caricature of a politician who's who's you know just like a caricature of the policies and they would say everything to everybody and they're willing to say whatever it takes to win and they never are sincere and all of a sudden something snaps and he says this is ridiculous. I'm going to go out and say exactly what I want and the scene that I love the most was I've actually imitated once or refused to do it in public is a scene where he's at a dinner a big fundraising dinner where everybody is writing big enormous checks and he gets up and he starts getting a rap going into Arap he starts giving you know doing a rap about the drug companies and giving them money and I'll take your money and I'll keep on doing it. But it is really it's just great. I just loved it. It's a real it's a great spoof on what politics is all about and like most spoofs there's enough truth in it so people can recognize it and say it's a great movie. You know have you had to slip into that mode where you say

things to please certain audiences rarely do that. That was sort of my trademark as governor I'd often get myself in trouble for saying exactly what I thought. But I do say exactly what I think. Well I also I actually make it a point of saying things that audiences don't like and not in a way to be in your face. But for example when I go to New York I talk about guns. You know I'm not a big gun control guy. I mean we have gun control and we don't have gun control in Vermont I support the federal. I support the assault weapons ban and I support background checks and I think background checks should be applied to gun shows but I don't know hunters that think that they need an AK 47 or that criminals should have handguns but I don't believe that you ought to have a national gun control bill. I think we ought to have you know whatever you need in New Hampshire you can have. Other than that you've got to enforce the federal law whatever you need in Vermont you're going to have if you want a whole lot more because you're from Massachusetts or New Jersey then you should have a whole lot more. But don't tell us in Vermont and Wyoming and Montana what you should do about guns because that's what you need in New Jersey and California. I bring that up

on purpose because I don't want liberal audiences in places like New York to think that oh my gosh this guy is the perfect candidate and then read in the paper six days later well he's not as good on guns as we wish he were. You know I'm sort of in the middle really on guns. I don't. I mean there are others who don't want the assault weapons ban they don't want background checks I don't think that's a reasonable position. But in Vermont we have the lowest homicide rate in America so guns weren't going to you know gun control didn't do any good in New York. They want not to go I'm going to let them have it why can't the states decide for themselves what they want. You used the word liberal and you have been portrayed by the national media as sort of the big liberal in this race. How do you feel about that. I think it's sort of a pathetic caricature of what's happened in the Democratic Party. You know I'm a balanced budget guy. I'm pretty modest on gun control. There are some instances in which I support the death penalty although I mostly don't. If that's what a big liberal is these days in the race that's a big problem for the Democratic Party. I think I'm a centrist but I don't care. Whatever people want to call me they can call me with their record. My record is that counts. I want strong fiscal management and I want a strong social

safety net for the middle class not just poor people. Let's go back to the phones 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 1 889 to HPR to Shelly from West Midland High Shelley go ahead. Shelley you're on the air with me one. Yes hello. You guys are my spin. OK go ahead. Thank you Dr. Dean. I know that in your health care program in Vermont an excellent program you stressed a lot of children have you under 15. And I'm wondering what it is that your background has brought you to that particular emphasis. Well it's actually under 18. Ninety nine percent of our kids in Vermont are eligible for health insurance and 96 percent are signed up. We also have all working poor signed up for health care. I was in my background has led me to this is prevention. I think politicians are too short sighted they think about things in two and four and six year term so they can come back and say oh you should vote for me because of this that if you don't think in 20 year terms you can't do anything for the next generation. We do a

lot of early intervention with kids we visit 100 percent of women who give birth in the hospital and 91 percent of newborns get home visits in our state. And that way we get to find out which families really are in trouble and need help when the child 0 to 3 before we do something about it. If that child gets to school at 5 after five years of damage is really hard to turn that around and we do the same with things. Health care is very inexpensive to provide health insurance for young people very inexpensive. We do it because in the long run you pay triple later on if you don't do something about it. So it's just common sense. I'm an internist. I saw some kids but not that wasn't most of my practice. But if you don't invest in children then 20 years later you pay a price by having an enormous prison population. That's just ridiculous. Let's go to Portsmouth. And Jamie is with us. Hi Jamie go ahead. Hi Governor Dean. Why have you been acting like a big supporter of gay rights and civil unions when you actually hid from the issue in Vermont by signing a civil union

bill. In actuality in the closet when no one would be watching. And why did you not attend any gay pride event even after the bill was passed. Does this have anything to do with your Republican family background. I think in all due respect what you just said is the silliest thing I've ever heard. That civil unions bill never would have passed if I hadn't pushed it. I insisted the legislature pass it because the right thing to do the reason I signed the bill in private is because it was the most divisive issue that we'd seen in 100 years in Vermont. Signing ceremonies are triumphalist. And I thought it was a time to heal the state and bring the state back together again. So you know I believe in equal rights for everybody. The reason I signed the civil unions bill had nothing to do with gay rights to do with American rights. I think every single American deserves exactly the same rights as everybody else did. And I would challenge you to find another politician who would have dared to sign that bill. She says that you did sign it quietly. I signed it in private because after stamping it championing it publicly from the from the

time an hour and a half it came out of the bill. This is sort of a column in The Washington Blade of a guy who takes this position which is sort of making it being circulated by my opponents mostly on the Democratic side and that's you know that's what politics is. Every time somebody writes something that's not favorable it's going to get wide circulation by your opposition. But it's about the silliest thing I've ever heard. I mean I think most people recognize that what we did in Vermont was a landmark for equal rights for every single American. So I'm not going to put up with that kind of stuff. You know she also asked about your background how did your family talk about or think about same sex couples. I don't think we ever did. I mean Whoever imagined that we would have equal rights for gay and lesbian people. Forty years ago when I was growing up with your mother think about it today. She thinks it's fine. And interestingly enough she was talked into it by a Republican state trooper who was with me when we went down to visit them in Florida one time it was the height of the civil unions debate and which is a pretty ugly debate. I mean I wasn't a member. I mean I'm a little annoyed by the question to be honest with you guys where I had to put up with no other politician in America would have done what I did six months before an election.

And so we were down in Florida visiting my parents. I had to go to give a speech down there so we stopped often. I'm sure my father thought it was awful but chose not to discuss it. Father thought civil unions was off. I'm sure he did. I mean you know he was eight years old at the time. But my mother who's you know who goes to church almost every day is Catholic and came home and the Republican state trooper was with me thought that you know what. What's the big deal. What's the big deal about everybody having exactly the same rights as everybody else. So he basically said hey look this is not a big deal this is equal rights what do I care. You know I mean and so at the end. So the next day I was staying with them and the trooper was staying in a motel down the street and they were getting up having breakfast my dad hasn't gotten up yet and my mom gets back from church and she still looks at me she says apropos of nothing she said. Stick to your guns and the civil unions thing you're doing the right thing. So how did you come to that conclusion and she said Well then he talked me into it.

Danny the Republican state trooper you're right. So a Republican state trooper succeeded where the Democratic governor had not quite. Well no we just didn't talk about it a lot but you know the author of that decision was the Republican six term Republican attorney general that I had appointed as chief justice of the Supreme Court the chairman of the Judiciary Committee and the House is also a Republican. This is you know I was very proud of the New England Republicans. I know there are some that are far on the right but there are a lot of them still believe in civil rights for everybody. They still are reasonably good environmentalists and they still believe in balanced budgets that endears them to the forever of course. I used to get about 30 to 35 percent of the Republican vote when I was up there because not all Republicans are sort of right wing way out there on social issues. There are still a lot of Republicans that are business people and that's why the Republicans are like fiscal conservatism but the truth of the matter is that the Republicans are no longer the party of fiscal responsibility. We haven't had a Republican the national Republican national Republicans they have not balanced the budget in thirty four years in this country. And the Democrats have a much better record in the last 10 years of being fiscally responsible and I think that's

why you're seeing some Republicans come to our events. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 is our phone number here in the exchange. I'm Laura. We did in the exchange. Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean is here a doctor and governor of Vermont for 11 years join us 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 1 800 8 9 2 to HPR. Tell us what you want to know about Howard Dean as a person. What qualities do you look for in a president what kind of background. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 to Durham next and John John you're on the exchange welcome. Thank you. Hi Governor Dean. You're not the first governor of a small state who has never had that deal and make critical decisions in the area of foreign policy. I wonder if you could give us some sense what sort of a team you would put together in that arena. Now we have

a general as secretary of state and everybody should understand. Generals give orders. Mr. Powell doesn't really have a background in international negotiation. And Condoleezza Rice is an ivory tower academic who's had very little operational experience with international affairs. I'm not asking you to name your foreign policy team but it sure would be interesting to hear what you think for example of the ideas of someone like George Soros. Well I actually I'll tell you who I get advice I get a lot of advice from George Soros as a matter of fact. I just met people who he is said George Soros is a very very wealthy American who as of I think Czech origin who has been very successful in that he runs a number of institutes a Democracy Institute he was instrumental in part in helping to the Eastern European countries develop democratic institutions

by spending a fair amount of his billions of dollars in nonprofit organizations to help the funding of democracy in an emerging post-communist nations and so forth. And he has a huge international interest because of his own background. And so I get advice from him. I get advice from a lot of the Clinton people. They're not always necessarily signed on to my campaign. We run most stuff by people like Sandy Berger. Not always former national security national security adviser to Bill Clinton. We have had discussions with the former secretaries of state including Madeleine Albright and many of her team. So we have people that we rely on who are extremely experienced in foreign relations. And you have to do that if you're a candidate and you have to do that if you're a president. But people have often said well what kind of foreign experience do you have. And what I say is if you were willing to vote for the Iraq war resolution based on what the president told you that that's not enough foreign policy experience because what matters is how you

make decisions not how much experience you've had if you've had a lot of experience in Congress. But you make the wrong decisions. What difference does it make. You've got to you've got to be have critical thinking. You've got to be willing to challenge decisions that you don't believe where you don't believe the facts are there and you've got to have very smart people who are experts in their field around you giving you advice and it won't always be the same advice. What I discovered as governor is the best way to get to a decision is have two people who disagree come to your office and argue it out in front of you and be able to ask each one's penetrating questions and see how they answer them and if they can't support their case then they're not right. And that's that's what that's the critical piece of being a president is a sense of what the nation needs what's in the nation's best interests and a willingness to look at the facts which is where I think the Bush administration comes up short as they're driven by ideology and not facts. As the campaign progresses if you continue in the campaign it will come up that you're the governor of a tiny state and that that experience can't really be relevant to running you know this huge

nation is huge. Well that's what they said about Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter. But for months even smaller than that. Well that's true but it is one of the 50 states. Look there is no program that we have in Vermont that would work somewhere else. We've talked about the success by six program where we visit 91 percent of newborns. There is a program in Central Los Angeles called Mar Vista which is 96 percent Latino neighborhood. And they do the same similar things. It's all corporate funded. You can get great results in any community. This is not a state run program it's a community run program we just give them guidelines and and some money and then if you have good community leadership that's that's dedicated to making families stronger. This program works anywhere in the country. We have another Jamie on the phone this one from Norwich Vermont. Hello Jamie go ahead. Good morning Laura. Morning. Dr. Dean good morning. Is there supposed to be personal questions maybe this one is too personal but I'm wondering given all your media attention and your

ridiculous travel schedule going after this campaign how is your relationship with your family changed and how can you keep your family structure intact through this whole thing. I think that's a great question Amy question myself. No it is it is hard. I mean the thing I dislike the most about the campaign is being away from Vermont for all the time I've had to be away from Vermont. You know we discussed this before I was before I started to call home at least once a day and usually often two or three times a day and I try to get home one day a week and that that makes a difference. You I very much. No it's not. But my kids are older. One's a freshman in college is about to be a sophomore in college which is about to be a senior in high school so that helps but that's definitely the hardest part of all this. What do they think of it. Well I think they have mixed feelings. What we've the arrangement that we kind of have come to is and we've had this forever is that everybody gets to do what they get to do. And we all support each other. So my wife is not going to campaign. She will give interviews and not every interview

everybody wants but she'll give interviews because I think people have a right to know something about her because it has a direct bearing on what I might be like as president the United States. My kids are totally off limits by their own choice. I said if you want to give interviews go ahead if you don't that's fine. And they don't. They know they're teenagers. They want to live as close to being normal teenagers as they possibly can. And I think that's fair. How how has it been received that or how does your wife feel about the attention on her decision to wanting to continue her medical practice throughout the campaign even if you become president. She said that she still wants to you know go to a hospital and work. But I think that's reasonable. Why should she be dragged along and my weight. I've always felt very very strongly that being president is not a family enterprise and being in politics is not a family enterprise. And I think people have to have a right to know something about that. My life partner but I don't think and I think the press has been pretty good about this that they have a right to know all the details of my kids lives unless my kids are used as political props which they are not. So I don't see

you know there are many many couples who work in this country and I believe that if you think that if you respect the role of women in American society that they in fact have a right to determine what their career is going to be and it doesn't always have to be with the husband says it isn't in him or my family it isn't. We're two very independent people. We went to medical school together which is where we met and we deeply respect each other and we practice together to before I became governor. I want to ask Jamie a question Jamie. Yes. You're a Vermonter right. I am indeed. What do you think about your governor running for president. I think it's wonderful that he's running for president. I thought he was a fabulous governor and I share the same ideals he does as fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Now what do you make of sort of everybody else in the country thinking that he's a big liberal. I agree with his statement earlier and that it is sort of a sad commentary on the Democratic Party. I am not a Democrat. I'm an independent but I do feel that the word the word liberal has become sort of smeared a criticism right off the bat.

So they're attempting to take Dr. Dean and make him something that he's actually not just bring him down a notch but you know if you're looking at the race here if you really are a liberal you're going to be more interested in someone like Dennis Kucinich than you are Howard Dean I think. OK Jamie thanks for calling. Thank you Laura. And let's go to Concord and Paul Hi Paul you're on the exchange Welcome. Hi. You've called yourself the straight talk innateness Governor Dean. Well other people and yet you've had to apologize to several other candidates for characterizing their positions and have been criticized for your accusations. So is it more important to be straight talking or honest. Well I'd like to think both. I actually mischaracterized John Edwards position on the war for which I apologize to him. I think that the only apology that I've made. But you know if I make a mistake I'm not ashamed to apologize.

I mean I think part of being straightforward is when you made a mistake and I'm not embarrassed about doing that I have another campaign related question for you there's been a lot of attention to the high tech nature of your campaign raising money on the web getting supporters on the web. Was this your idea or somebody else's. It absolutely wasn't an idea wasn't my idea was not your idea of what happened was the web found us because we are outspoken and we do lay out ideas without worrying about what the polls say. The web is a huge community of people. It's a great tool. But if you don't have a message the tool doesn't work for you. But it's also a community. It's a group of people all over America actually all over the world for that matter although of course our principal interest is those in the 50 states and Puerto Rico and it's a it's a group of people who live in a community that is connected electronically without knowing each other face to face but they get to know each other and they found us. There was a group called Meet up dotcom which now has 60000 over 60000 members that are supporting us

in 300 cities around the state. You didn't start that they started it and we picked up on it we figured it out and then we learned to support them. Have you always been sort of tech Internet type of guy or not. I mean I don't consider myself a tech Internet type of guy. I have learned an enormous amount in this campaign. I mean the edge the leading edge of the internet is something that is well understood by my campaign manager and campaign staff but it was never well understood by me. I'm learning an enormous amount about the web and this really is leading edge we actually have a station on the Internet called DirecTV we have what you can see. I think I'm on it now actually. Smile your smile your TV. We have all kinds of cutting edge things that I know nothing about I couldn't do them on the internet but I at least understand what they are. Now that the Internet community is is very very advanced technologically it's far beyond just using e-mails and looking things up on the web for research. It is a real thriving community and it's also smart people who are

well-educated who are somewhat alienated from the traditional political process. That is how you beat George Bush. You know we raised a ton of money last quarter more than anybody else has raised in any quarter. And the campaign so far other than the president and that's great. That's what the press focuses on what I focus on is 83000 donors half of whom had never given money to a politician before. That's how you beat George Bush. It's not by trying to be like him a little bit maybe voting for the war voting for some of the tax cuts but not all of them voting for no child left behind. That's what the guys in Washington think is the way to beat George Bush I think is to differentiate your self clearly from George Bush. So a very different vision for the country and bring in three or four million people who didn't vote in the last election. And then the president goes back to Texas. Let's go to kanon. Helen joins us. Hello Helen you're on the air. Hi. Hi. Go ahead Helen. Dr. Dean can you please describe one situation in your life that was very challenging for you. What were the situation ultimately helped you to become a better person.

Well actually the signing the Civil unions bill and the promotion of the civil unions bill was certainly the most that actually convinced me that I could be president. Was that the moment there wasn't the moment. No but but that was certainly a formative thing that was a really tough campaign after I did that. I mean there was a lot of enormous amount of hatred. It's amazing the hatred for for people who are different than you are. And I think gay and lesbian people are the last people on earth where it's legal to discriminate in this country. It's not legal to discriminate against people by race and so forth although people do it but it's legal to discriminate against gay and lesbian people and I thought that was wrong. And I stood up and said something about it and people don't appreciate it. Were you threatened. Yup. Like what kind of threats. Well I'm not I don't we don't go into security details at all because I think that's bad. But we certainly had to have a very different security arrangements for that summer during the campaign. But when I saw the venom and the hatred and I also ultimately saw that in the end it evaporated because giving people rights the same as everybody else's doesn't threaten the people who already have the rights. I realize that even Karl Rove couldn't and couldn't invent anything much worse than what I

saw. And I thought you know if you're willing to do this really in the be ready to run for president. What's it been like campaigning in New Hampshire. It's been great. I mean even though we have a lot of fun of each other's expenses between Vermont New Hampshire our sister states they really are. And it's been terrific. I love campaigning in New Hampshire. It's like being home. Would it be any surprises for you. The thing that surprised me is how conservative the State Government is because the government is actually consistently been more conservative than the actual people in Vermont and New Hampshire. And that surprised me a little bit I'm not sure why that is. OK. Well I hope to see you back in the fall. Thanks. We'll dive into some of the issues next time tax policy Iraq and so forth. So when I come back in the fall and we'll do it again. Sounds good to me. OK. Thank you. Howard Dean he's one of nine Democrats running in the Democratic presidential primary. He is a doctor and was governor of Vermont for 11 years. The exchange is a production of HPR produced by Keith shields Ty Fraley and Sally Hurst our engineer is Dan Colgan. And I'm Laura I.

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