American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Derek Charles Catsam, 2 of 3

[Interviewer] : "Mississippi.. you know, you know, they they can only spend if you sp- if they.." [Interviewer] : "?? spent any more than they could spend 39 days in jail.." [Derek] : "Right" [Interviewer] : "if ?? didn't, then you would lose your.." [Interviewer] : "you lose your.." [Derek] : "right.. ability to appeal" [talking over each other] [Interviewer] : "you lose your ability to appeal and you lose whatever it was.. five hundred dollar bail mon-" [Interviewer] : "money.. and you have 500 dollars times.." [Derek] : "right" [Interviewer] "300.." [Derek] : "I don't remember exactly how many days, is it 60?" [Interviewer] : "It's 39." [Derek] : "Oh, it's 39.. ok.. ok.." [clears throat]. [Interviewer] : "It's 39 days, um, ?? say ?? a limited amount of time that you could spend in jail after that amount of time.." [Man 3 interrupts] [Man 3] : "Pardon me for a second, please.. we have ??" [Interviewer] : "Ok." [Interviewer] : "Ok. Uh, ?? if you can give me the [Interviewer] : "a quick, um, simple version, of ah of why the Freedom Riders you know after getting out of ?? had to come back to Mississippi all on that one day." [Derek] : "According to state law they could only stay in jail for a certain amount of time and if they stayed beyond that then.. oh *mumbling to self* no you're asking me the other.. I was thinking you were asking me.." [Interviewer] : "That- that's fine ?? Mississippi state law." [Derek] : "Um.. Mississippi state law dictated that if they didn't address this issue after a certain period of time, they sacrificed their bail..

and in so doing the Congress racial equality would've been responsible for that and it really would've broken the organization if had to be responsible for that much bail for that many people uh over the course of time, plus, um... *long pause* ok, again we're we're dealing with two different why they have to stay in jail for a certain amount of time and why they had to come back.. yeah, ok.. that's fine." [Man 1 and 2 talking over each other] [Derek] : "We'll just.. yeah, right." [Interviewer] : "Mississippi law said, said tha- that the- they all had to come back um.. uh.. ?? that uh.." [Derek] : "Right. Yeah. Let- let me. Yeah.. so the law in Mississippi dictated that they had to come back or else the Congress racial equality would be responsible for their bail money and that would've broken the organization.. to have spent that much money on that many people." [brief pause] [Derek] : "Try it again?" [Interviewer] : "I'm getting a little bit more.." [Derek] : "Ok.." [Interviewer] "an- and you know what you can do just add to that I mean and that was a tactic by Mississippi.. [talking over each other] [Derek] : "Right.. right.. right.." [Interviewer] : "..to try to financially break now the core and the Freedom Riders." [Man 2] : "Right.. ok.. one of the goals of the mi- of the state

of Mississippi was to break the Congress racial equality.. t- to crush them and one of the ways to do that is economically and so they required each of the people who was arrested to come back to the state at a specific time or else they sacrificed their bail.. and if they sacrificed their bail the Congress racial equality would've been responsible for that money and that much money times that many people really would've devastated the organization." [Interviewer] : "So tell me about the success uh-uh it's kind of really amazing, successful moment.. we have footage of like all these people coming back so tell me about the success of them all coming back." [Derek] : "CORE did a really fantastic job of staying on top of these people and making sure that they fulfilled their duties.. that coming back was part of the Freedom rides.. it was a part of the process, just like filling up the jails was just like being willing to ?? was.. that coming back was part of what they were doing to challenge Jim Crow on transportation in Mississippi." [Interviewer] : "I- I cut for a second." [brief moment of silence]. [Derek] : "So in this on-going chess game, Mississippi had one last move they thought

could make.. they would break the organization of the Congress racial equality which was to make them all come back on the same day and if they didn't they'd sacrifice their bail and Mississippi officials assumed they would not come back and yet they did and the Congress racial equality was able to marshall these people and have them come back and so even the last big move that Mississippi had in their pocket didn't end up working." [Interviewer] : "Ok, let's cut for a second. Um, i'm gonna ask you that again I'm gonna ask you slow down, just a little." [people talking over each other] [Interviewer]: "Even though it is ??.." [Derek] : "Right, yeah yeah." [Interviewer] : "But we're ?? the Freedom Ride cause then what we'll do, we'll go from you [clears throat] to this woman who we have reading a letter ?? requires you to come back.." [Derek] : "Right.. ok." [Interviewer] : "..then we'll go t- t- to the ??. Ok.." [Interviewer] : "???" [Derek] : "So, Mississippi had one final move in this on-going chess game and that was to make all of the Freedom Riders come back to address their bail situation. [Interviewer] : "I need more.." [Derek] : "Ok." [Interviewer] : "So, *mumbling* which would break the back of.." [Derek] : "Right, right. Sure." [Interviewer] : "?? back of the Freedom Riders." [Derek] : "So in this on-going chess game.. Mississippi had one last move that that had which was to make all of the Freedom Riders

come back and address their legal status within the state and their goal in this was to break the back of the Freedom Riders." [Interviewer] : "Why? How? [brief pause] Interviewer : "So, I mean so, so, because they couldn't afford ??.. we've got it, we can piece it together and try to get it all together." [Derek] : "Right, ok, ok." [Derek] : "The chess game metaphor is what we're going with? Ok." [Interviewer] : "Yeah, but I want you to say tha- tha- that it would break the backs of the Freedom Riders because they wouldn't be able to pay ???" [Derek] : "Right, right." [Derek] : "And so in this on-going chess game, the state of Mississippi had one last move that they thought would crus- crush the Freedom Riders and they would.." [Interviewer] : "Start over." [Derek] : "Yeah." [Interviewer] : "Ok, let's cut for a second.. let's just have some water." [Derek] : "Yeah." [Interviewer] : "I ?? the Red Sox actually.. ?? Yankees, Red Sox it is." [Derek] : "Yeah, no it is.. best rivalry in sports." [mumbling in background] [Interviewer] : "So.. hated.. ok." [Derek] : "So in this on-going chess match the state of Mississippi felt like they had one more move that was gonna break the back of the Freedom Riders, which was their goal and that was to make them come back to the state and deal with their legal cases on

an individual basis and the reason they thought this would be so successful is that they thought people wouldn't come back and therefore they'd crush the Congress racial equality which would be responsible for the bail." [Interviewer] : "Ok, cu- cut for one second.. ??? if you could kind of ??" [Derek] : "So in this on-going chess game, the state of Mississippi felt like they had one more move that would ultimately crush the Freedom Riders, which was their real goal and that was to make each of them come back and deal with their legal cases individually and if they didn't come back they'd sacrifice their 500 dollars bail and the Congress racial equality would be responsible for that because they put up the bail money.. and so what they wanted to do ultimately was to destroy the Congress racial equality which they thought this would do." [Interviewer] : "Ok, that's fine.. we got ?? in there.. um, ok let's cut. [scribbling notes] [Interviewer] : "You really ??? with that Red Sox ??, but go ahead." [Derek] : "So in this on-going chess game, the state of Mississippi felt like they had one last move and that that move would crush the Freedom Riders which was their ultimate goal and that was to make them all come back individually to deal with their legal cases

because if they did not come back, they'd sacrifice the bail money and that cost the Congress racial equality that money and that much money would've broken the organization and Mississippi knew that and that was their goal." [Interviewer] : "Groovy. Ok, um, cut." [Derek] : "And so.." [cut off by interviewer] [Derek] : "And so rather than provide Bobby Kennedy's hope for cooling off period.. in fact the Freedom Riders accelerate the process an- and they start coming in by train and by airplane as well as by bus." [phone starts ringing] [Interviewer] : "Sorry.. false cut.. hold it." [Interviewer] : "Ok." [Derek] : "And so ??? Kennedy calls for a cooling off period and the Freedom Riders say "no", in fact they accelerate the process, they intensify the Freedom Rides and they have people coming in from all across the country to participate in this process and so it really has become a national endeavor, this little process they started off in Washington." [Interviewer] : "Ok, cut. Um, I want you to do that again ?? [Derek] : "Cu- cut that last.." [Interviewer] : "..planes and trains any way they can and just a little bit more ??? because this is like.." [Derek] : "Right."

[Interviewer] : "this is like a very, kind of big moment in some ways i- i- in the film where I think uh uh a part of everybody coming in and so it's this big moment where it's like "NO! we're not gonna cool off, we don't care what they do." [Interviewer] : "So, um Bobby Kennedy calls ??? response." [Derek] : "So Kennedy calls for this cooling off period and the Freedom Riders say "no" and in fact they intensify the project and they have people coming in from all around the country and they're coming in not only by bus, but by by plane and by train." [brief pause] [Interviewer] : "Um.. one more time.. they the- they say no, we're not gonna we're not gonna cool off, we're just gonna fill the jails up and keep coming and coming by plane and train.. that was great." [Derek] : "Ok. So Robert Kennedy calls for this cooling off period and the Freedom Riders say "no" and in fact they accelerated the process. They pick it up and they intensify it and they start coming in by plane and by.. [Derek mumbling] [Derek] : "Let me do that again.." [Derek] : "So Robert Kennedy calls for this cooling off process

and the Freedom Riders say "no" and in fact, they pick up the Freedom Rides, they intensify the whole project and they have people coming in from all across the country to participate in this project and they're coming in by plane and they're coming in by bus of course and they're coming in by train." [interviewer jotting down notes] [Interviewer] : "That's good, we got it ??? in." [Interviewer] : "Hold on, let's cut.. of.. of.. of.. of.. of Kennedy and the calling out the federal marshals, you know after ??? and the Freedom Riders are beaten in the Montgomery riot." [Derek] : "So after the Montgomery riot, the Kennedy's realized.." [footsteps in background] [Interviewer] : "Cut." [mumbling between interviewer and another person] [Derek] : "So after the Montgomery riots, you have a situation where the Kennedy's I think realize that Patterson wasn't the most reliable broker and that he wasn't going to adhere to the promises that he'd made and so they're gonna have to take the step of bringing in federal marshals, bringing in federal authorities to help bring about order." [Interviewer] : "Let's just do that again cause I had on ??'most responsible??' Patterson betrays them and ???" [coughing in background]

[Interviewer] : "And the.." [coughing in background] [Interviewer mumbling] [Interviewer] : "And the Freedom Riders are insisting that they're gonna go on..and the freedom riders are insisting that they can go on...that can be the ending, ok?" [Derek] : "Right, right, ok. You've introduced John Seigenthaler, they'll know who he is?" [Interviewer] : "Yeah, yeah they know who he is." [Derek] : "So you have the Montgomery riots and the Kennedy's are feeling betrayed.. and there's John Seigenthaler laying in a pool of his own bl- blood and.." [Interviewer] : "Let's cut there." [Derek] : "Yeah." [Interviewer] : "?? after the Montgomery riot." [Derek] : "After the Montgomery riots, the Kennedy's are feeling betrayed by Patterson. They have John Seigenthaler lying in a pool of his own blood.. they have the Freedom Riders meanwhile insisting they're going to go on and so the Kennedy's need to bring in federal authority, finally." [Interviewer] : "Let's cut for a second." [Interviewer mumbling] [Derek] : "After the Montgomery riot, the Kennedy's are feeling betrayed and they realize that they can't

work with Patterson, they're going to have to bring in federal authorities in the form of the federal marshals and meanwhile the Freedom Riders insist they're going to continue, they're going to move on." [Interviewer] : "One more time. I like that, I want you to get.. I liked where you had, you know, the Seigenthal ??? blood and you know..." [Derek] : "Right.. right.. right.. ok." [Derek] : "So after the Montgomery riots, the Kennedy's are feeling.." [Interviewer interrupts] [Interviewer] : "Let's start again, um.. i- i- i- if you can start hard with after, not so after. After Montgomery riot.." [Derek] : "Right.. right.. right.. right." [Derek] : "After the Montgomery riots, the Kennedy's are feeling betrayed.. there's John Seigenthaler lying in a pool of his own blood and they realized that they can't work with Patterson and they're going to have to bring in federal marshals. Meanwhile the Freedom Riders insist they're gonna go on." [Interviewer] : "Ok, cut." [ticking in background] [Interviewer] : "The state of Mississippi ??? only the federal government and they have to bring in ??? and their ??? was.." [interviewer mumbling]

After Montgomery riots, the Kennedy's are feeling betrayed.. there's John Seigenthaler lying in a pool of his own blood.. they realize they can't work with Patterson.. he's not reliable.. the state of Alabama's not reliable and so they're going to bring in federal marshals in hopes that they can help solve the problem." [Interviewer] : "Mhm, mhm..great, that's fine. Let's cut. Freedom Riders are saying that um you know... we're gonna continue" ??? talk about the way it seemed in the rest of the world." [Derek]: "The Freedom Riders were insistent that they're going to go on, and this exasperates people in many quarters, not only in the White House, which is really frustrated with the Freedom Riders, but national opinion isn't quite quite fully behind them. They sympathize during the violence but they/a lot of people feel like them moving forward ?? the Freedom Rides are now an act of antagonism and that is really problematic for a lot of Americans." [Interviewer]: "Mhm, uh just a little more on that, you know, say a little more about the times you were against ?? you were you were reporting on the nightly news on NBC at ?? saying that

they should stop... just to get an idea." [Derek]: "Should I start from the beginning of what I just said?" [Interviewer]: "Yeah, yeah, that's good." [Derek]: "Alright, ok.. um.. the Freedom Riders insisted that they're going to go on... and this isn't popular in a lot of circles and not only in the White House. Many Americans think that the Freedom Riders have become antagonistic. There are Op-Ed pieces in newspapers across the country beseeching them to stop. There are nightly newscasters who give opinion pieces saying they shouldn't move forward with this, and so this isn't a universally popular effort that they're taking at this point." [Interviewer]: "One more time if you can say you know NBC Nightly News, NBC News, you know New York Times. It's not just the Scranton Daily News, it's these huge media outlets.. they're saying "no this is wrong"." [Derek]: "Right, right, right, right." [Derek]: "So the Freedom Riders [Derek pauses and restarts] the Freedom Riders insisted that they're going to go on and this exasperates a lot of people, not only in the White House but across the nation. The New York Times writes an Op-Ed asking them not to go forward. The NBC Nightly News, David Brinkley gives an opinion piece saying they shouldn't move forward. So this is unpopular in a lot

of circles." [Interviewer]: "Cut. Did you hear that, John?" [John, camera man]: "Yeah, let's do a safety.. I got.." [Interviewer]: "Sorry, one more time ?? got caught in my.." [Derek]: "The Freedom Riders are insistent that they're going to move forward and this exasperates a lot of people.. not only the Kennedy's in the White House and not only Southerners, but also across the nation. The New York Times does an Op-Ed piece saying they shouldn't.." [Derek forgets what he's saying] "shoot.." [Interviewer]: "Slow down, just a little bit." [Derek]: "Yeah.." [taking a long pause and deep breath] "..alright." [Derek]: "The Freedom Riders insist that they're going to go forward and this exasperates a lot of people, not only Southerners, not only the Kennedy's in the White House, but across the nation. And so you have an editorial in the New York Times asking them not to continue with the Freedom Rides. You have David Brinkley on NBC Nightly News asking the Freedom Riders not to move forward, and so this isn't a universally popular endeavor that they're taking." [Interviewer]: "Mhm, ok.. you didn't hear my stomach, we're okay. Let's cut."

[Interviewer]: " Yeah, we showed it to some. Well, how was this three days later, four days later, but it's within 24 hours." [Derek]: "Within 24 hours of the Congress Racial Equality deciding to end the Freedom Rides the students from the national movement decide 'we're gonna pick it up, we need to move forward with this'." [Interviewer]: "Ok, um, I think, um we wanna try t- to.." [John finishes the interviewer's sentence] [John, cameraman]: "Honk in.." [Derek]: "Within 24 hours of CORE ending the Freedom Rides the students from the national movement have already picked it up and started moving back into Alabama." [Interviewer]: "Mhm, um one more time just maybe a little bit more of that / you know we're not going to let ?? stop ?? and ?? they're on their way." [Derek]: "Right, right, yeah, ok." [Interviewer]: "Ok." [Derek]: "Within 24 hours of CORE ending the Freedom Rides, these students from the national movement had picked up saying we're not gonna allow violence to stop this movement and they were moving forward into Alabama." [Interviewer]: "Ok, cut.. but we want to talk about the uhh.." [Interviewer and John quietly speaking to each other] [Derek]: "So Bo Conner steps.. [Derek stumbles on his words] ..I keep doing this..

so.." [Interviewer]: "We can always cut it out.. so we just cut it out." [Derek]: "Right, ok.." [Derek]: "Bo Connor steps in and decides he's going to arrest these students and make an object lesson of them [Derek frustrated] [Derek]: "I ne-, I need to know the question, um a little more specifically." [Interviewer]: "Yeah, yeah it- it's that looking for that moment, that unscripted tense moment being arrested by Bo Connor." [Derek]: "When Bo Connor steps in and arrests the students, there's this tremendous period of tension because the students have no idea now what is going to happen. They know Connor's reputation, they know that he's somewhat of a wild card, they know that he rules over this reign of violence in Birmingham and so they have no idea what's going to happen to them. It's this incredibly frightening moment for them." [Interviewer]: "I want to talk a little bit about [interviewer clears throat] something else here, um.. we have this meeting between Patterson.." [interviewer stops talking] [Derek]: "In this meeting between Patterson and Seigenthaler and officials from Alabama, Floyd Mann promises that he can protect the Freedom Riders and this really

ties Patterson's hands because he's in a situation now where in front of the Kennedy official, he has to act." [Interviewer]: "Ok, so we have all that beginning, so just say start from 'this really ties Patterson's hand and he kind of has to, he agrees'.. you know that he, you know he will ??.." [Derek]: "Right, ok." [Derek]: "This ties Patterson's hands because one of his officials has committed himself to being able to protect the Freedom Riders." [Interviewer]: "Cut. ..ok I just need more so, so that..." [Derek]: "Ok." [interviewer and cameraman mumbling to each other] [Derek]: "Now Patterson's hands are tied. His chief law enforcement official has said that he can protect the Freedom Riders and so now in front of the Kennedy administration, basically, Patterson was put in a situation where he has to act.. he has to promise that he can protect the Freedom Riders." [Interviewer]: "I didn't feel good about that one, want to do it again?" [Derek]: "Yeah." [Interviewer]: "Ok... slow down a little bit. Um... o.k., go ahead."

[Derek]: "So now Patterson's hands are tied because his chief law enforcement official has essentially said 'I can protect the Freedom Riders' in front of the Kennedy administration's representative and so Patterson's in a position where he has to act." [pause] [long pause] [Interviewer]: "Ok, cut." [Derek]: "Robert Kennedy goes to the ICC in hopes of getting them to clarify and state the policy that will then be what the administration utilizes going forward... to execute..." [Derek]: "..no, that's not good." [Interviewer]: "Let's cut. That's it, yeah the ICC.." [interviewer and cameraman speaking softly to each other] [Derek]: "Robert Kennedy goes to the Interstate Commerce Commission to have them.." [Derek pauses] [Derek]: "No... damnit... it's actually really complicated.." [Derek chuckling] now I'm not having a delivery issue.. I'm having a.." [brief pause] Robert Kennedy goes to the Interstate Commerce Commission because they have the power to

enforce the rules that the Supreme Court have laid forward, to enforce the laws of desegregation; and what they'll be able to do is to make sure that local communities are adhering to the laws." [Interviewer]: "But those laws hadn't been adhered to.. right?" [Derek]: "Right.. well that's where you get into the issue of..." [brief pause] [Derek]: "Robert Kennedy goes to the Interstate Commerce Commission to get them to enforce desegregation of interstate transportation and this is, the Supreme Court had announced on this in the Morgan decision, and they announced this in the Boyton?? decision, but no one had enforced this and finally the administration is stepping up to make sure that this is enforced and the ICC is how you do that." [Interviewer]: "But the ICC was slow and ... but, but he knew it would take time so he called for a cooling off period." [Derek]: "Yeah, yeah, right, right.. ok, um, yeah the cooling off period isn't exactly accurate with that. Um, let me try something, let me try something else.." [Interviewer]: "Ok." [Derek]: "Robert Kennedy goes to the Interstate Commerce Commission to have them enforce desegregation

of interstate transportation and this should've happened long ago after the Morgan decision or after the ??Boynton?? decision, but the reality is that the Interstate Commerce Commission had never really seen themselves as being involved in civil rights questions. They had been much more involved in regulation of transport and so finally the Kennedy administration wants them to step up and address this issue of segregation, of Jim Crow on interstate transportation." [Interviewer]: "Ok, umm, if you can do that again don't talk about ??Boynton??, [mumbling] that was great.. ???.. but I think let's cut out ??Boynton??" [Derek]: "Ok.. ok." [Interviewer]: "But I think we also want to say, 'but it would take time'." [Derek]: "Right." [Interviewer]: "You know what I mean? Hold on, cut for a second.." [brief pause] [Derek]: "Robert Kennedy goes to the Interstate Commerce Commission to have them enforce desegregation of interstate transportation. This is something that could have happened a long time ago after the Morgan decision, but no administration had stepped up and asked them to do this and so as a result.." [Derek pauses] [Derek]: "Ugh, damn I like what I did before. I just don't remember [Interviewer]: "Ok, cut." [brief pause]

[Derek]: "Robert Kennedy goes to the Interstate Commerce Commission to get them to enforce desegregation decisions and this should've happened after the Morgan decision, but.." [Derek pauses again] [Derek]: "Ugh, no, I used 'decision' 3 times there... ah, why am I having such a hard time with this one? [Interviewer]: "You're doing good, this is the worst.. the worst.." [Derek]: "Yeah." [Interviewer]: "..The worst, the most complicated thing of all." [Derek]: "Robert Kennedy goes to the Interstate Commerce Commission to get them to enforce desegregation of interstate transportation. This is something that could've happened a long time ago.. it could've happened after the Morgan decision but these things take time and no administration had been willing to step up and demand that the Interstate Commerce Commission enforce these rulings; and finally the Kennedys get them to do that and they get them to demand from the states and from the localities that they'd adhere to the laws that the Supreme Court has put forward." [Interviewer]: "Ok. So finally the Kennedy administration goes and makes these demands, but it would take time." [Derek]: "Right.. right." [Interviewer]: "You can start there.. if you want." [Derek]: "Yeah, let me just start over.."

[Derek]: "Robert Kennedy goes to the Interstate Commerce Commission and asks them to enforce desegregation decisions.." [Derek frustrated with himself.] [Interviewer]: "You're doing great, man." [Derek clearing throat] [Derek]: "Can I just go?" [Interviewer]: "Yeah." [Derek]: "Robert Kennedy goes to the Interstate Commerce Commission and asks them to implement desegregation of interstate transportation. This is a process that has taken and would take some time.. uh, it could've happened after the Morgan decision.. but the Kennedy's finally decide to step up and ask the ICC to enforce these rules." [Interviewer]: "Ok, just add, um, 'but it would take time, and Kennedy asked for a cooling off period. It would take time for the ICC to make a decision." [Derek]: "Ok, ok, right, ok. I'll start from there then." [Derek]: "O.K. right, o.k. I'll start from here. It would take time for the Interstate Commerce Commission to to carry forward with this dictate.." [Derek messes up what he is saying] [Derek]: "It would take

time for the ICC to be able to do this and so Kennedy hopes that this time there will be a cooling off period in order for the ICC to be able to implement this." [Interviewer]: "Great, let's cut." [Interviewer]: "As this, you know ... waves of Freedom Riders are flooding into Jackson which becomes this media [Derek]: "As the Freedom Riders are flooding into Jackson, it becomes not only a national story but it becomes an international story and that has a large number of implications. For example, when the media covers it in Africa the United States is trying to appeal to this so-called Third World because the issue of communism is so important to American foreign policy and to the Kennedys, and so the realization is that this isn't good news for the United States when you talk about being abastion of freedom and justice and here you have people in the country, who for some reason can't use a restaurant or can't ride a bus, and so this has international implications and the media really helps on that issue." [Interviewer]: "I want you to do that again for me cause we already touched on that earlier, so we already know.. you touched on that kind of international thing ???? from Cuba where they're talking about..." [Derek]: "Ok, ok, ok."

[Interviewer]: "..Robert Kennedy, but so [stuttering] it's almost like the foreign media..." [audio cut] [Derek]: "The Freedom Riders are pouring into Jackson and increasingly this is a major national story that's getting headlines all across the country and is on the nightly news and it's also drawing international attention... and, I don't know what to say from that.." [brief pause] [Interviewer]: "Ok." [Derek]: "The Freedom Riders are rolling into Jackson and increasingly this is a major national news story getting on the daily newspapers, getting headline coverage, it's on the nightly news every night.." [Derek pauses] [Derek]: ".. Ah.. the other one was better." [interviewer lets out a loud sneeze] [Derek]: "Ok." [Interviewer]: "Red Sox." [Derek]: "Ha, although the way they're playing lately.. ooo.." [Derek]: "The Freedom Riders are rolling into Jackson and

this is a major national story. It's drawing headline coverage in newspapers, it's on the nightly news every single night and it's also drawing international coverage because it's a story that really resonates with people who are seeing on the one hand the American ideals that they know about and on the other hand the way the Freedom Rides and the response to them confronts their image of American ideals." [Interviewer]: "Ok, let's cut." [Derek clears throat] [Interviewer]: "Why didn't Greyhound and Trailways, I mean, you know, they ??.. why didn't they integrate their buses?" [Derek]: "That's a good question, um.." [Derek chuckles] [brief pause] [Interviewer]: "Do you want to take a moment?" [Derek]: "Yeah, gimme a second to think.." [Interviewer]: "Ok.. so why did they decide Greyhound?" [Interviewer]: "I guess we want to say that they decided half of them would go in the Greyhound." [Derek]: "Right.." [Derek]: "So they split the groups between Trailways and Greyhounds.." [interview interrupts] [Interviewer]: "I think we want to start so the Freedom Riders are.." [Derek]: "The Freedom Riders.. yup.."

[Derek]: "The Freedom Riders decided to use the ??? national bus line.. Trailways and Greyhound.. and those companies both had similar policies which is that sort of a 'When-in-Rome' kind of policy. When you get to the south, you adhere to southern customs, you would adhere to southern laws and sometimes the bus drivers would demand that people adhere to these rules and other times it would be police who had demanded it -- it would depend. And that's not a very good answer actually.." [Interviewer]: "Ok, so cut.." The Freedom Riders chose to use the two main bus lines.. that are national bus lines, Greyhounds and Trailways... and when they did so.." [Derek loses train of thought] [Derek whispering]: "Jesus.." [Derek]: "The Freedom Riders used the two main, major ne-.." [Derek pauses] [Derek]: "Getting ??softbrain?? now." [Derek]: "The Freedom Riders chose to use the two main, national carriers.. Trailways and Greyhound.. and when those bus lines got to the South, it was a sort of 'When-in-Rome' policy so

when they got to the South, they adhered to local customs and local laws." [Interviewer]: "Which were?.." [long pause] [Interviewer]: "Ok, hold on." [Interviewer and cameraman speaking to each other] mm hmm