American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Derek Charles Catsam, 3 of 3

the freedom riders used the two major national bus networks Greyhound and Trailways to do the freedom rides and when they get to south it became a situation of sort of when in Rome, so the bus companies adhered to Jim Crow. Which meant segregation on buses, it meant segregation at the bus depots and the buses went along with that cause it was easiest thing to do and they were responsible for upholding law as well. [host?]. One more time? [Catsam] Ok. The freedom riders use the two major national bus lines Trailways and Greyhound, and when those buses got to the south it was a when in Rome situation. So you would hear segregation laws. Segregation laws on the buses segregation laws in the bus stations and the other facilities that serve travelers. [host] Ok, uuuum, I just wanta go back at the very beginning I just need something that says something about that - that that the way they looked at it, we have this itinerary which is something [host] Mhm, yeah [Catsam] it's just like this you know, 14 day trip [host] yeah I have that [Catsam] it's gonna end with this rally in New Orleans, and it's just an idea that - that you know on, you know on one level it was thought that it was gonna be [host] right [Castam] this easy trip to the

[host] right. The original itinerary was gonna be fairly quick, it was gonna get them down to New Orleans by the anniversary of the Brown decision and so their anticipation was that this would be a two week trip and that it would follow a fairly prescribed path. [Interviewer] And then it would end with this big rally in New Orleans and we want to get the idea that it was kind of simple, this trip that was going to travel through the south. [Catsam] Fair to use the word "naive" do you think, or are we trying to not leave that impression? [Interviewer] Yeah, fair to use. [Catsam] CORE had this set itinerary that the freedom rides were going to follow, and it was going to start in early May and it was going to end on the anniversary of the Brown decision in New Orleans and there was going be a big rally and big celebration and there's almost an element of naivete attached to it, how easily they thought it would go, and even though there were some fears certainly, I think they anticipated they'd be able to follow that itinerary fairly clearly. [Interviewer] One more time, I just want you to say that it'll be this 14-day trip.]

[Catsam] The Congress of Racial Equality had this itinerary and they anticipated that this would be a 14-day trip that would culminate in really a celebration on the anniversary of the Brown versus Board of Education decision down in New Orleans. [Interviewer] And say something about "naive." [Catsam] Okay. CORE had this set itinerary, they anticipated that they... [stumbles over words] CORE had this set itinerary, they anticipated that this would be a two week trip, that it would culminate down in New Orleans with a real celebration on the anniversary of the Brown versus Board of Education decision, and there's an element of naivete attached to that, really, given everything that ends up happening. [Interviewer] [Okay, great. I want to talk again, something that we talked a little bit about earlier that ... so we're just kind of setting the stage for where we were in May of '61.] [Catsam] When the freedom rides commence there is no real national civil rights movement up to

this point. There are movements going on in isolated areas, in various communities, especially after the sit-in movements of 1960, but there isn't a single coherent national civil rights movement up to this stage. [Interviewer] [Say that and say that most of these incidents happened in the upper-south. [Catsam] As the freedom rides commenced there was no real national civil rights movement in a lot of ways. What you have are isolated pods, places where things are going on. (No that doesn't work.) As the freedom rides commence, there is no real national civil rights movement to speak of. What you have are movements in various locations, most of them in the upper south, where you'll have sit-ins taking place, particularly after February of 1960. (Laughs) T ry again? When the freedom rides commence you don't really have a

national civil rights movement. What you have is movement in various communities, in various places, and most of that is in the upper south, and this begins really with the Greensboro sit-ins. I don't like that as an interpretation. [Interviewer] I think you're good, but this was a real fear of the deep south, of taking these actions to Alabama.] [Catsam] When the freedom rides commence theres no real national civil rights movement to speak of. What you have are movements going on in various localities, most of them in the upper south and so for the freedom riders, the deep south is a really daunting proposition because there hasn't been as much groundwork laid down there. [Interviewer] Okay, that's fine. I want to try to get this again, this group...]

[Catsam] When the freedom rides begin they're stepping on regularly scheduled buses heading into the south, they don't know what kind of attention they're planning on getting, but they're not drawing an enormous amount of media attention, and they really are stepping into uncharted waters, they have no idea what to expect when they head down there. [Interviewer] Once again, I want to get the idea that there's no protection, there's no protection for them, there's no major press to protect them, they're just there. There's a couple representatives of the black press, but that's it.] [Catsam] When the freedom riders board those buses in Washington DC, those are regularly scheduled buses, they're not chartered, they're not special buses. They don't have a lot of media attention following them, in fact they have a couple of representatives from the Black press but no national media following them, and they certainly don't have any protection, whether from the police or from the military or anything. They're going down on their own on regular buses and are going to see what happens to them. [Interviewer] [Groovy, cut.]

[Catsam] After Greensboro, the students in Nashville actually had the most organized, most developed of the local movements and it consisted of a number of students as well as some leaders who had taken them under their wing, and they did really remarkable job of developing a comprehensive movement for the city of Nashville. [pause] By the end of the freedom rides, as opposed to when it begins, I really do think that you had a movement, you've developed a civil rights movement, it's gone national, it's pulled together, that's coalesced all these forces, these students, and though the senior people from CORE that's incorporated the NAACP as well as the presidential administration, it's a real remarkable thing what happens during the freedom rides, because I think that you start off with an isolated wave of

events happening here and there, and by the end of the freedom rides I think you could say there's something along the lines of a national civil rights movement. [Interviewer] [Once more, I love that, that was great. Maybe just want to come around at the end to say "that's one of the things that the freedom rides..."] [Catsam] Right. One of the remarkable things about the freedom rides is that I feel that when it was done you do begin to have a national civil rights movement where before the civil rights were... One of the amazing things about the freedom rides is that by the time they are done you have something resembling a national civil rights movement, where before you had movements in various locations and in various places taking place, suddenly this had become national, that you have these organizations working together, that you have young people as well as the more senior leadership cooperating, that you have the active involvement of a presidential administration that frankly had been lukewarm to begin with. You have people connecting from Washington to Virginia to North

Carolina in a way, all the way down to the deep south certainly, in a way that you'd never had before, and so the freedom rides are this remarkable moment in history that pulls together all of these strands, and by the time it's done, I think you CAN talk about the civil rights movement. [Interviewer] [Oh my god, I'll forgive you for being a Red Sox fan. No. That was great, talk about the training and the purpose of the training.] [Catsam] The training was geared towards familiarizing the participants with non-violent protest. One of the problems with it was that you have a range of participants, some of whom have tremendous experience doing these sorts of things and some of whom are really inexperienced at it, and so for some of these people it was old hat, the training and fellowship house in Washington DC was familiar territory to them and for some of them this was all brand new. [Interviewer] Talk a little bit about what the training was, so say that "once people had been accepted to the freedom rides, CORE brought them to DC to have this..."]

[Catsam] Once the applicants had been accepted they all went and met in Washington DC, the beginning of May, end of April and beginning of May, and they went through various role-playing exercises and thought exercises and things along those lines, as well as just learning about non-violent activities, and I think that that enabled them to at least get some sort of foundation for what to expect, although I don't think any kind of training could prepare them for what was to come. [Interviewer] I'm going to ask you again, once they were accepted they were brought to Washington, and then we'll see the training, don't say they don't know what was going to happen because I think somebody will say that earlier.] [Catsam] Right, I think I might have even said that a while ago. [Interviewer] Yeah, we don't want to say it too many times, but just want to kind of set it up because we see this training; we want to say once they were all accepted they had to come to Washington for training.] [Catsam] Once the applicants were accepted, they went to Washington at the end of April and beginning of May to engage in this

training at Fellowship House in Washington, DC, and it involved various role-play activities and thought exercises and all kinds of things to try to prepare them for what was to come. [Interviewer] Okay, great, cut. Why do you think the white press was so not interested in the beginning of the rides?] [Catsam] [blows air] I suspect that... I need to phrase my answer in the form of an answer that you can use, I suppose. The white press certainly wasn't indifferent to the civil rights movement, but it relied upon concrete specific events, so the Montgomery bus boycott becomes an event although early on there's certainly no press there. The student sit-in movement become an event fairly easily because there's a narrative that you can construct around it and I think that they didn't know what to expect from the freedom rides because they didn't know exactly what the

purpose was, didn't know exactly what was going on, and many of them had gotten the letters but news agencies tend to be reactive rather than proactive so rather than anticipating the story they're waiting for a story to happen. [Interviewer] If you had to say what was the accomplishment of the freedom riders, aside from what you said a while ago, what would be your answer?] [Catsam] One accomplishment of the freedom rides that is more direct than other aspects of the movement is that when the freedom rides were done you had the desegregation of interstate transportation, and this is a fairly remarkable thing, given the duration of segregation on transportation, what that meant to people. And so there's a very concrete accomplishment of simply desegregating interstate transportation so that by early to mid-1962 you really have successfully accomplished that goal. [pause] And then there are all the other things about

making it national and the symbolism and all the stuff that writers-- [Interviewer] Let's cut.] [Catsam] Soon after many of the freedom riders returned to Jackson to deal with their legal cases the ICC does come down with its decision. It comes down in September of 1961 and will be put in place November first, and the first concrete effect of that is going to be to take down the "whites only" and "colored only" signs, so the most visible manifestations of Jim Crow on interstate transportation will come down on November first. [Interviewer] One more time, give me some passion there. This is it, this is your last question, but this is also the big deal, this is it for them, so...] [Catsam] Right. Trying to think of how to phrase it so that it's accurate. Do you want me to do it with the Jackson stuff or do you want me to start with the sort of in September? [Interviewer] I like it tied, because they're tied.] [Catsam] Okay, yeah, okay. If you tie it together, sure.

Even as the last of the cases are being resolved in Jackson, in September of 1961 the Interstate Commerce Commission comes down with their ruling that'll be implemented in November and that most visible manifestations ... [Interviewer] That was great, start right where you were.] [Catsam] As the last of the cases are being resolved in Jackson, the Interstate Commerce Commission comes down with their decision in September of 1961 and the most visible manifestation of that decision would take place when the implementation starts on November first, 1961, and that would be the taking down of the "whites only" and the "colored only" sign and that really, not only in terms of its tangible effects, but in terms of its symbolic nature really shows the impact that the freedom rides had. [Interviewer] [One more time, and you don't have to say "the decision" and "the implementation."] [Catsam] Even as the last of the cases in Jackson are being

resolved, the Interstate Commerce Commission comes down with its decision which will come into play in November. (No, that doesn't work.) Okay. [Interviewer] [I think it's more that they just come with this decision, we don't need to know November, "in September they come with this decision that says the signs must be taken down," and I like what you did before, in that it ends years, years of...] [Catsam] Even as the last of the cases are being resolved in Jackson, the Interstate Commerce Commission comes down with their final ruling and one of the im... (sighs, shazzam... Start thinking too much about it, just say it.) Even as the last of the legal cases is being resolved in Jackson, the Interstate Commerce Commission comes down with its final ruling, and the most visible manifestation of this ruling would be the taking down of the

"whites only" and the "colored only" signs in waiting areas and restrooms and so forth and this is really the culmination of years and years and years of frustration, generations who had to deal with the indignities of Jim Crow in interstate transportation, and so that becomes really the most concrete effect of the freedom rides. [Interviewer] Ok. I think we're good. [PA] Rolling for room tone. [silence]